Soda Ash and when to plane?

[stephswan]

Yay! I finally unmolded my first two batches of soap (this is seriously so addicting!) and I'm pretty stoked about my second batch (cloud photos), but my first batch...something went wrong I think as i have LAYERS of soda ash. These were made in individual silicone moulds (I'm waiting a bit to do them in the loaf). Soda ash is talked about a lot in the forums, so I have looked at some, but just wanted to come here to see why my soda ash seems to be worse than others.

The first pic, the bottom soap is how all the tops (where the soap was exposed to air) all looks like. it seems to have a thick film. The top pic is the bottom after I unmolded it. I left these in the mould for 6 days so i'm confused to why there's so much soda ash (but...I did move the moulds to different areas of the house a lot, especially when it wasn't ready...causing the sides to tear slightly). I didn't think the soda ash was going to bother me, but it does so I just bought some cheap planer on amazon and I'm planning on planing them, but when should I be doing that? These soaps are still soft, when i unmoulded them and put them on a cookie rack (which i took off after reading these soaps shouldn't be on metal), I have some remnants on the cookie rack.

My recipe is also attached (i didn't use SL for the 1st batch).

My first batch was made at my tiny cabin in the mountains and second batch was made in an NYC apartment. I don't know if air/ventilation has anything to do with it, or maybe even humidity? (it's much more humid in the mountains with less air ventilation).

My second batch, i used SL and waited 2.5 days to unmould them and didn't move them around until it looked like the edges were solid. I loved how these turned out (i don't see any soda ash, but read that activated charcoal creates a lot of soda ash, so should i be expecting them in a week or two? Unless there is soda ash, but I just can't see it?)

Thanks for all your feedback! Going to make 2-3 more batches this week at the cabin and just want to limit the soda ash as much as possible!

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Not so sure if all of these plaques are soda ash… but once after another.

That on the top of the square bars is a lot of soda ash, but nothing too excessive. If you feel uncomfortable, plane it off. But practice working with your planer first, otherwise you only might disimprove things .

When you have kept them in the mould for six days, the lye should be eaten up that far that you shouldn't get much soda ash (but it's still possible). The whitish stuff on the sides is likely not soda ash. Find out by cutting one of the bars in half. If the spots are throughout the volume, then it's not soda ash.
It could also be stearic spots, i. e. soap crystals from cocoa and shea that build up during saponification. You have written that you are soaping at 95°F. Unless you did heat up the oils further, this might be insufficient to prevent untimely crystallisation. Temperature during saponification has an impact too: small individual moulds cool off faster than big loaves. Notes for your next batch: that's the things CPOP is good as a remedy!

Sodium lactate, particularly when overdosed in high-oleic soaps, can create a crumbly, grainy, dull texture that looks similar to soda ash.

Stearic spots and SL crumbles are hard to get rid of afterwards. But keep in mind that, just like proper soda ash, they're purely cosmetic issues and don't impede the quality of your soap as such.

Also have a look at
https://classicbells.com/soap/ash.asp

 

[earlene]

I don't plane while the soap is still soft. Too easy to gouge AND soda ash may return to newly exposed surface. Some soaps create more ash than others. Besides myself, others have also noticed they get more ash with soaps that have Activated Charcoal as an ingredient. Also, lye heavy Andalusian Castile soaps tend to have more ash, as noted in the lye-heavy Andalusian Castile soap experiment thread (here).

Steaming or rinsing in very hot water or rinsing with high alcohol content are 3 methods that I also use with success, always followed by drying with a microfiber cloth. But I don't do this while the soap is still easily dented (too soft).

Oddly, though, with 3% beeswax, people don't seem to report much soda ash, so that surprises me.
ETA links discussing beeswax & soda ash:
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/soda-ash-trouble-shooting.60548/https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/what-are-your-best-practices-for-preventing-soda-ash.59209/

 

[stephswan]

When you have kept them in the mould for six days, the lye should be eaten up that far that you shouldn't get much soda ash (but it's still possible). The whitish stuff on the sides is likely not soda ash. Find out by cutting one of the bars in half. If the spots are throughout the volume, then it's not soda ash.
It could also be stearic spots, i. e. soap crystals from cocoa and shea that build up during saponification. You have written that you are soaping at 95°F. Unless you did heat up the oils further, this might be insufficient to prevent untimely crystallisation. Temperature during saponification has an impact too: small individual moulds cool off faster than big loaves. Notes for your next batch: that's the things CPOP is good as a remedy!

Sodium lactate, particularly when overdosed in high-oleic soaps, can create a crumbly, grainy, dull texture that looks similar to soda ash.

Stearic spots and SL crumbles are hard to get rid of afterwards. But keep in mind that, just like proper soda ash, they're purely cosmetic issues and don't impede the quality of your soap as such.

Also have a look at
https://classicbells.com/soap/ash.asp

Thanks for the link - I will check it out.
I also just cut my bar in half, and you're right, it seems like the spots are throughout the volume. I'm may need to retry this recipe at a higher temp to test it again. These individual moulds didn't even heat up when after i poured it in (the temp was about 85 degrees, I guess that is typical bc they are such small volume). I'm going to try a heating pad next time too, I was reading about FO smells getting into the oven with the CPOP method, so I'm a little scared about that.

I didn't use Sl during this batch, so it's weird that is is crumbly - but the bar is still VERY soft. Thank you for telling me it's just purely cosmetic!!! I was so scared that I would have to throw this batch out as my bf loves the scent of these.

i just read the article, and YES. it's definitely soap crystals because it is so waxy!!!!!

I don't plane while the soap is still soft. Too easy to gouge AND soda ash may return to newly exposed surface. Some soaps create more ash than others. Besides myself, others have also noticed they get more ash with soaps that have Activated Charcoal as an ingredient. Also, lye heavy Andalusian Castile soaps tend to have more ash, as noted in the lye-heavy Andalusian Castile soap experiment thread (here).

Steaming or rinsing in very hot water or rinsing with high alcohol content are 3 methods that I also use with success, always followed by drying with a microfiber cloth. But I don't do this while the soap is still easily dented (too soft).

Oddly, though, with 3% beeswax, people don't seem to report much soda ash, so that surprises me.
ETA links discussing beeswax & soda ash:
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/soda-ash-trouble-shooting.60548/https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/what-are-your-best-practices-for-preventing-soda-ash.59209/

Thank you for letting me know that it is DEFINITELY too soft right now to plane and rinse/wipe down. Even when I cut into them to check to see if the spots went through, it seemed like the white batter inside smeared a little. I'm going to wait at least 4 weeks before I attempt to plane/wipe them down.

I will check in a week to see if my activated charcoal soaps has more ash (just really didn't see any when I unmoulded them). Thank you for sending the links too - when i did my search, I did not see those.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Nice soap! Based on the feathering I see in your soap, I’m wondering if you poured while the batter was fairly thin. When I pour thin batter (emulsified), I need to make sure that my soap heats up in the mold, either on it’s own or by forcing it on a heating pad or in the oven (CPOP). If I don’t, it may not gel and then I end up with soft soap that has a somewhat grainy or coarse texture, and more often than not, some ash. The soap will harden up as it dries and cures, but it can take weeks and the texture is never quite as nice as my soaps that get hotter and gel.

 

[stephswan]

Nice soap! Based on the feathering I see in your soap, I’m wondering if you poured while the batter was fairly thin. When I pour thin batter (emulsified), I need to make sure that my soap heats up in the mold, either on it’s own or by forcing it on a heating pad or in the oven (CPOP). If I don’t, it may not gel and then I end up with soft soap that has a somewhat grainy or coarse texture, and more often than not, some ash. The soap will harden up as it dries and cures, but it can take weeks and the texture is never quite as nice as my soaps that get hotter and gel.

WOW. wow. I am SO IMPRESSED with the knowledge this community has. YES YES YES, i believe i poured while the batter was fairly thin (since it was my first time, I was scared of fast trace lol and didn't even use a stick blender). None of my soaps (only 2 so far) have been gelled in the moulds (stays at 85 degrees in the individual moulds - so i'm going to try heating pads under it next time). Do soaps that don't gel take longer to cure? I'm going to wait 6 weeks (trying 4 weeks to plane it), but would I need to wait longer?

 

[ResolvableOwl]

I didn't use Sl during this batch, so it's weird that is is crumbly - but the bar is still VERY soft.

It looks very beautiful inside! If not to remove the soda ash, planing might be a great way to dig out some of these swirls to the daylight.
When you didn't use SL and you see spots inside, they are most probably stearic spots. (Look at mine – stearic spots don't have to be ugly!)
SL crumbliness looks different, and is associated with a chalky texture.

A heating pad is a good alternative if you fear your oven to smell like perfume. And/or carefully cover the top with plastic wrap (that helps against soda ash too, but can cause wrinkled look).

Regarding the softness, I'm at a loss. Your recipe sounds balanced and reasonable (I assume you stuck to the amount of water). It could be the case that your lye wasn't quite as pure as the recipe expected it to be. The lye would be used up too early and leave you with an actual superfat above 5%.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I think gelling helps a soap harden faster initially, compared with soap made using the exact same recipe that isn’t gelled, but that doesn’t necessarily equate with the cure. I agree with many of the makers on this forum that soap continues to change even after a 4-6 week curing period. In my experience, if a soap doesn’t go bad due to rancidity, it just gets nicer and nicer. I made a batch of soap during early summer 2019 that stayed soft for weeks, possibly because the humidity was really high that summer. I was going to toss it, but luckily was advised not to by an SMF member. It was much firmer when I got back from a multi-week vacation and almost two years later it is an even nicer soap.

If you want to gel soap in individual molds, don’t be afraid to crank the heat up a little, and especially if you’re not using an accelerating FO, other additives that cause heating (honey for example) or high coconut oil (more than 25%). It would be useful to start with a test batch so you can get a feel for how your recipe behaves. I put cavity mold type soaps in the oven or on a heating pad and watch them like a hawk until I can tell that the temperature of the soap itself is rising fast enough for the bars to reach the temperature needed for gel. If the soap temperature hasn’t increased much or the soap has gotten colder after 30 minutes, I increase the heat. If they’re heating too fast, I might take them out of the oven, or turn down or shut off the heating pad. The target temperature for gel is fairly low (140 F) for a recipe made using a lye concentration of 33%, but the temperature at which the soap will gel goes up if you increase the lye concentration for the recipe.

 

[stephswan]

It looks very beautiful inside! If not to remove the soda ash, planing might be a great way to dig out some of these swirls to the daylight.
When you didn't use SL and you see spots inside, they are most probably stearic spots. (Look at mine – stearic spots don't have to be ugly!)

Regarding the softness, I'm at a loss. Your recipe sounds balanced and reasonable (I assume you stuck to the amount of water). It could be the case that your lye wasn't quite as pure as the recipe expected it to be. The lye would be used up too early and leave you with an actual superfat above 5%.

Thanks! yeah, I think i would just like to see the swirls a little more.
Wow - i love the stearic spot soap. It's quite beautiful actually, glad to know they don't always have to be ugly lol.
Yeah, I'm at a loss too, i was thinking bc it had such a high percentage of shea. I'm hoping it's not my lye (i may have bought 10 lbs of it lol, but my 2nd batch (different recipe) isn't as soft so I'm hoping it's fine.

I think gelling helps a soap harden faster initially, compared with soap made using the exact same recipe that isn’t gelled, but that doesn’t necessarily equate with the cure. I agree with many of the makers on this forum that soap continues to change even after a 4-6 week curing period. In my experience, if a soap doesn’t go bad due to rancidity, it just gets nicer and nicer. I made a batch of soap during early summer 2019 that stayed soft for weeks, possibly because the humidity was really high that summer. I was going to toss it, but luckily was advised not to by an SMF member. It was much firmer when I got back from a multi-week vacation and almost two years later it is an even nicer soap.

If you want to gel soap in individual molds, don’t be afraid to crank the heat up a little, and especially if you’re not using an accelerating FO, other additives that cause heating (honey for example) or high coconut oil (more than 25%). It would be useful to start with a test batch so you can get a feel for how your recipe behaves. I put cavity mold type soaps in the oven or on a heating pad and watch them like a hawk until I can tell that the temperature of the soap itself is rising fast enough for the bars to reach the temperature needed for gel. If the soap temperature hasn’t increased much or the soap has gotten colder after 30 minutes, I increase the heat. If they’re heating too fast, I might take them out of the oven, or turn down or shut off the heating pad. The target temperature for gel is fairly low (140 F) for a recipe made using a lye concentration of 33%, but the temperature at which the soap will gel goes up if you increase the lye concentration for the recipe.

This is what I love about the soap making process! Age seems to help them and I've seen so many of you that have had soaps for over 2+ years that are still going strong. I'll take a page out of your book and keep these soaps around (if they don't go rancid) after my initial cure time of 6 weeks in hopes that they will just get better with age. I'm looking forward to trying this exact recipe with force gel (and i will also be eyeing it like a hawk) - thanks for the tip of (140 degrees), it definitely helps give me a baseline.

 

[Monab]

I learned the that amount of moisture and water you use in your soap can have an big impact on your soap. I tried 50:50 lye ratio that had no soda ash on it and it still hasn't to this day and that was about a week and a half ago. Now, I working around to see which ratio I like. So, far when I use less water in my recipes there is no soda ash but I do have to move fast. Less water means less time to create design because it will trace and thinken your batter.