Soap too cleansing?

[LunaLion]

I've been trying to come up with some original recipes but they all seem to have very high cleansing percentages. :eh: I can't seem to get the cleansing in the recommended range. So, what happens if your soap is super cleansing? Will it dry out skin? Should I make the superfat percentage high to even it out?

 

[soapsydaisy]

Can you post your recipe?

 

[LunaLion]

I haven't saved any because I wasn't sure about the high cleansing range.

But all the recipes I've tired to make had Olive Oil, Coconut Oil, Avocado Oil and Palm Kernel Flakes.

 

[cerelife]

Luna, I think it's the palm kernel flakes.
I just put one of my recipes that has a cleansing value of 19 into soapcalc, and then I exchanged palm kernel flakes for the palm oil and the cleansing value shot up to 37!
I've never used palm kernel flakes...do they add anything special to soap?

 

[melstan775]

Up your superfat and use a lot of olive oil to counteract drying effects as well.

 

[cerelife]

mel, I tried playing around with the palm kernel flakes instead of palm oil in my basic recipe. But even with olive oil at 50% and a superfat of 20% the cleansing level is still at 30.

 

[melstan775]

Here's three for you I made, though I don't claim to be an expert. It looks like palm kernel flakes are drying but not as hard as palm. Small changes change these each up a bit. I seem to recall that most recipes I've seen palm kernal flakes in also has some palm at least. These require the addition of castor oil and are superfatted at 8%.

 

[LunaLion]

Thank you all! I purchased palm kernel flakes on a whim. I haven't used them yet and I don't think it will be a permanent ingredient. Once I have more experience, I'm going palm free!

 

[LovelyMalia]

Palm Kernel is VERY cleansing and even a tad drying if you use it on sensitive skin like your face.

I've had good luck with coconut oil, avocado oil, and olive oil blends being moisturizing and not too cleansing.

 

[DWinMadison]

I suggest you lower the % of coconut oil if you are wanting to lower the cleansing number. Of all the commonly available soaping fats, I believe it is he most cleansing...at least according to Soapcalc.net. I calculated a 1lb batch a 100% coconut oil and got a cleansing score of 67! The same calculation using 100% palm gets a cleansing score of 1.

 

[jcandleattic]

My soaps are high % in both CO and PKO and they are not drying at all with a SF of 6-8%.
Soap calc numbers are just a guideline and are not completely accurate. (check out the numbers for a 100% OO soap and you will see what I mean)
Even a 100% CO bar with the right SF will not be drying. I make Mariner's bars all the time with a higher SF % and people LOVE them for their moisturizing properties, so...

Try not to put too much stock in the calc numbers, play around with different recipes and find one that you like and works for what you are trying to get.
That's what soapmaking and formulating is all about.

 

[DWinMadison]

My soaps are high % in both CO and PKO and they are not drying at all with a SF of 6-8%.
Soap calc numbers are just a guideline and are not completely accurate. (check out the numbers for a 100% OO soap and you will see what I mean)
Even a 100% CO bar with the right SF will not be drying. I make Mariner's bars all the time with a higher SF % and people LOVE them for their moisturizing properties, so...

Try not to put too much stock in the calc numbers, play around with different recipes and find one that you like and works for what you are trying to get.
That's what soapmaking and formulating is all about.

I don't necessarily disagree. Personally, I think sf% has way more affect on the conditioning properties of soap than tweaking oils. But, I thought the original poster was working toward a better "score." Personally I work for a reasonable blend of several fats (olive, coconut, palm, castor are staples with sometimes a little GV shortening, grapeseed or even canola. Last time I added peanut oil. I think they all bring something to the party. Frankly, men should never comment on the conditioning properties of soap. I can't even judge the difference in coarse and fine sandpaper.

 

[jcandleattic]

But, I thought the original poster was working toward a better "score."

Yes, and that was my point.
Don't put too much stock into that "score" because it's not the end-all be all of soap properties. It does not give you an accurate picture of how the finished bar of soap is going to be.
Soapcalc will tell you that a 100% OO bar is not cleansing and will produce a soft bar (hardness only 17) When after a full cure 100% OO soaps are brick hard and very cleansing (cleansing value = 0) as well as moisturizing. So IMO you can't count on the numbers being accurate.
I don't put a lot of stock or credence into the numbers of the soap calc.

Frankly, men should never comment on the conditioning properties of soap. I can't even judge the difference in coarse and fine sandpaper

- LMAO - don't be hard on yourself. You know what feels right on your skin and what doesn't so that makes you a perfect person to comment.

 

[lsg]

Personally, I would go ahead and use the PK flakes. Just use a lower amount of PK flakes and up the superfat %.

 

[sistrum]

Ok, first, palm kernel oil and palm oil are not the same. PKO is like coconut oil and is a cleansing oil, high in lauric acid.
Palm oil adds hardness like lard and tallow, high in palmitic and stearic acids.
Hardness on soap calculators refer to the solubility of the soaps not the physical hardness. The higher the oleic, linoleic and linolenic acids ( the ones that add conditioning) the faster the soap will dissolve in water.

The shorter the carbon chain in fatty acids the harsher they feel,on the skin. Superfatting is a mechanical means of adding conditioning to soaps high in lauric and myristic acids.

If you use the fatty acid profiles and not the "numbers" on calcs. You will be able to understand soaping better and make good formules. I know there are other members that can explain this better and don't have to type on a little bitty iPad.

 

[Lindy]

Palm oil is very conditioning whereas palm kernel is quite harsh. With with PKO or CO keep your %age down around 10 - 15%. Add some butters and lots of olive,oil which will make a nice hard bar of soap.

 

[Lindy]

Here's three for you I made, though I don't claim to be an expert. It looks like palm kernel flakes are drying but not as hard as palm. Small changes change these each up a bit. I seem to recall that most recipes I've seen palm kernal flakes in also has some palm at least. These require the addition of castor oil and are superfatted at 8%.

Why are you using coconut oil and PKO? You don't need both and you are increasing you cleansing by way too much.

 

[jcandleattic]

Why are you using coconut oil and PKO? You don't need both and you are increasing you cleansing by way too much.

My main recipe has 25% of each. It my best soap and I can't keep it around. I have gotten nothing but compliments on that soap from everyone who has ever used it. It is only SF'd at 6-8% (depending on my mood when making it) and it is not drying or harsh at all.

 

[Lindy]

Really? Wow! To me that just seems too cleansing. I only use CO and the highest I go on it is 15% unless I am doing a 100% CO bar. But then I prefer really high conditioning soaps.

It is always interesting to learn what people do differently. I was questioning Melstan because she is only on her first soaps and I wanted to make sure she realized she doesn't need both. One or the other is all you really need since they serve pretty much the same purpose.

Thanks for letting us know it can work.

 

[new12soap]

PKO and Palm are not interchangeable, by a long shot! As someone else pointed out, Palm is more in the same "family" as lard or tallow, and yes PKO is more closely akin to coconunt oil. Personally I have used both in the same soap, and I love the combo. PKO has a different feel in soap than coconut and I love it. I do personally prefer a lower cleansing, but there are other factors to consider.

If you want to get your cleansing numbers down, use less of them, but yes you can also increase your superfat to help compensate. Again, soapcalc numbers are only a guideline, they are not infallable or carved in stone.

I also do not recommend the use of grapeseed, peanut, canola, or shortening in soaps. I know, I know! A lot of people use them without a problem, but I personally do not find that they bring anything special to the party and they can increase the risk of DOS. YMMV of course, JM2C