soap Ph and oil combinations

[mrWho19]

Hellu! So i might have a couple of questions for all´ya soap makin gurus here! I my self am pretty new to this soap making business. I made four batches of different CP soaps. More or less succsessfully. I mostly use coconut oil 76deg, olive oil, and mix the two with walnut, hazelnut, avocado, shea, pumpkin, almond, sesame, castor, canola or any other i have at the moment. (Yes i stocked up) Not all of these of course, but usually three or four kinds of oils, to make the bar firm, bubbly, clensing and so on.. The soap calc way! So what i have yet not been able to figure out is how to influance the soap Ph value through the use of different oils, if that is even possible. The best value is from 7 to 10 i hear, but since i just started making soap a month ago, none of my batches are ready for use yet. One with mostly coconot oil and a little shea and mango butter has tested Ph 6,5 after 3 weeks and one with mostly olive oil and some coconut oil has tested Ph 10,5 after the same time. I used Ph strips and dipped them in solutinon of soap and distilled water. Another one a week old, made from coconut, olive and hazelnut oil has also tested ph 10,5. Since i am trying to be acurate and thorough when measuring and mixing all substances i am a little confused why such different results. So i am really interested, if you can tell me, how Ph changes as the bar ages, and what is your experience in dealing with the Ph monster. How long does your soap need to mature and what are your methods of speeding up the maturing proces. All or any help will be more than appreciated! [/img]

 

[Fragola]

PH is no monster, just a fluffy bird

We had a similar discussion few weeks ago, and I believe this link was posted:
http://www.millersoap.com/phtome.html

Pure soap has a pH close to 10. If there is any difference from the oils used (which I haven't really noticed), it will be extremely small.

The measurements your report, with values ranging from 6.5 to 10.5 must have measurement errors.

One thing is that paper strips are often inaccurate.

Also, soap is very little soluble in water, probably a hard bar of old soap even less. I'm thinking that when you dissolve soap into water, sometimes you get more of it dissolved, sometimes less.

My first suggestion would be to make sure you are able to consistently dissolve the soap in water. Shave some flakes and if you must - soak, crush, mash and mix them with a little water.

Then, make sure you are able to make few repeat measurements from different samples off the same bar that show the same value.

When you have got your method straight, things should run pretty smoothly.

For pH purposes, soap doesn't need to mature that long (few days to 1 week), and I believe that differences in measured pH are due to the water content. Due to the way pH works, you cannot properly measure the pH of something that's dry as a rock.

Talking generally, the recommended cure time is between few weeks and few months, depends on user and recipe.

 

[IrishLass]

Welcome Mr.Who19!

Fragola gave you some really good advice. The pH of lye based soap will always register on the alkaline side of the scale. If you are getting readings of anything lower than 8, you can be absolutely positively sure your pH measuring method/device is in error. As Fragola pointed out, the proper pH of true soap is around 10 (sometimes slightly more, sometimes slightly less), and your choice of oils will not affect pH to any degree worth mentioning.

What will affect pH is the curing process, but even though the pH will drop somewhat during cure, it will never go beyond certain boundaries- i.e., it will always stay in the alkaline range, usually between 9 and 10.5. That's because lye-based soap (or true or pure soap) is by its very definition 'an alkaline salt of a fatty acid'. If the pH were to ever tip to the neutral or acid side of the scale, your soap would no longer be soap anymore, but a messy, liquidy mass of goo that has no cleansing power.

Some things to hasten cure, pH-wise (but not by more than a few days or a few weeks at the very most) are these:

1) Encouraging your soap to go through the gel stage
2) Making soap via the HP method instead of the CP method

But if you ask me, there's more to cure than just the pH bottoming out to 9 or 10.5. There are some other micro-processes going on inside the soap to make it feel milder to my skin and to make it perform better in the lathering dept. as the weeks and even months march on. Because of this, I like to cure my soap at least 4 weeks, even if HP'd (two of my formulas even longer than that, i.e. my Castiles and salt bars). But each person will have to find their own perfect 'cure time' since much depends on a person's individual preferences/skin-type and the recipe you use, etc.., as Fragola pointed out. It's all a matter of trial and error and finding out what works best for you. That's the beauty of making it yourself- you can tailor it to your own personal tastes.


IrishLass

 

[mrWho19]

Thank you Ladies, you have more than helped me! Ok, so like a proper learning experience i now have even more questions than before, but a bit more clarity on what Ph means in soap making. Im trying the HP today for the first time and im using the process in the link below, since i dont have a crockpot, this seems like the best way. What do you think. And about the hastening the cure. I find the method where you put freshly poured CP soap into the pre-heated oven for two hours sensible enough. What are your experiences with this? I guess that in the end i will just have to be patient with my soap and let it cure properly like it should. But you know how we noobs get.. impatient and all...

 

[IrishLass]

Im trying the HP today for the first time and im using the process in the link below, since i dont have a crockpot, this seems like the best way. What do you think.

Oops! You forgot to post the link.

In any case, and for what it's worth, I don't use a crockpot for HP either. I use the covered-stainless-steel-soup-pot-in-the-oven-method (i.e. HPOP or 'hot-process oven process'). Some people use the double boiler or even direct heat methods on the stovetop. I like to use the oven method because #1- I can control the temperature better, and because #2- the heat is 'all-around' and even.

And about the hastening the cure. I find the method where you put freshly poured CP soap into the pre-heated oven for two hours sensible enough. What are your experiences with this?

The above is what I do, only with some slight modifications. Because of the the way I soap (I use a water discount and I mostly soap on the warm side- 120F), and also because my mold is well insulated, I find that I only need to preheat my oven to 120F and then turn it off before setting my covered soap inside for the night in order to ensure full gel (I usually soap around midnight).

I guess that in the end i will just have to be patient with my soap and let it cure properly like it should. But you know how we noobs get.. impatient and all...

Yes- time and patience are your best friends when it comes to good soap making. But don't feel too bad about getting impatient- even us 'old-timers' have been known to jump the gun every now and again. :wink:


IrishLass

 

[mrWho19]

So no crock pot needed, that good to hear. I made my first HP yesterday from this method(now with the link :http://www.zensoaps.com/hpsoap.htm . I boiled it for about 45min and it came out nice. Just a bit ugly, because i used wrong colors. Yellow and purple dont mix very well. Maybe next time ill try something different. By the way, do you have any experience using crayons? I hear they can be great for coloring soap, but im not yet convinced abut the safety. Any thoughts.

I also made one batch of CP and put it in the oven over night, but i made a tiny mistake and didnt insulate the mold, since i thought the heat in the oven was enough. Now i got ash! :? But its not that bad, just different.. How much does this process effect the cure anyway.

aaaah thats about it! I am so greatfull for your help, and now im going to sit in front of all the soap i made and whisper gently to it cure, cure, cure you have places to go people to wash....

 

[judymoody]

Hi and welcome!

You can get ash on fully gelled soap too although it's more common, IME, with non-gelled soap. Try spritzing the top with alcohol after you pour - it can help.

I don't recommend crayons. You don't know what colorants are in them; they may not be skin safe. Best options are micas, oxides, clays, or FD&C colorants sold by reputable suppliers.

 

[Fragola]

Heat and insulation are related to gelling soap and not ash. The oven probably gives out enough heat.

To prevent ash - it helps if you cover the soap to prevent air contact (during the first few days of cure).

 

[IrishLass]

By the way, do you have any experience using crayons? I hear they can be great for coloring soap, but im not yet convinced abut the safety. Any thoughts.

I'm with judymoody. I personally have never used crayons in my soap, nor do I recommend them for use for those that sell their soap since they are not approved by the FDA for B&B use, but if you are just making the soap for your own personal use, I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to experiment with it or try it out. Just make sure you know the source of your crayons and where they are made. Some crayons may have undesirable ingredients based on country of manufacture. Here are a few threads that discuss the use of crayons:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/forum/vi ... ht=crayons

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/forum/vi ... ht=crayons

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/forum/vi ... ht=crayons

I also made one batch of CP and put it in the oven over night, but i made a tiny mistake and didnt insulate the mold, since i thought the heat in the oven was enough. Now i got ash! :? But its not that bad, just different.. How much does this process effect the cure anyway.

Ditto the answers judymoody and Fragola gave you. Covering the surface of the soap helps.

aaaah thats about it! I am so greatfull for your help, and now im going to sit in front of all the soap i made and whisper gently to it cure, cure, cure you have places to go people to wash....

IrishLass

 

[mrWho19]

Ahhh so air is the culprit of ash! I covered my other soaps with a plastic wrap, a towel and a blanket, so everything went swell, but i got a bit "smart" with this one. We live, we pay no regard for instructions, we learn...

How much does cure speed up, if you put it in an oven on 120F over night anyway? What is the practical result of this?

I do agree about the crayons, i dont think it is wise to use them for soap, since there is no guarantee what kind of colourants and chemicals are in there, but i had to ask and make sure. They are cheap and practical and come in a wide verity of colours so i understand that some people want to use them. Eventually i do tend to sell my soaps so health and regulation concerns are primary in this case.


Thank you once more, for clearing a whole heap of different questions for me here. So here is another few!

What about titanium dioxide for whitening the soap. Its used in about 70% of all cosmetic products, but is supposedly harmful and carcinogenic. Again im asking you this here because i like to hear different opinions and points of view. Im not to keen on using it, but would like to make my soap whiter. Since i use coconut and olive oil for my usual base mixed 2:1 and i get a yellowish kinda bar. But i want to play around with different colours and for that i need a little whiter goo. What are the best white(er) oils and the most affordable ones you can name (i dont use lard)

 

[Suisan2]

Titanium dioxide dust is carcinogenic. And I think you're not supposed to eat it in large quantities. (However, it's often use to whiten up skim milk and it's in toothpaste.)

Regular TD is a pretty inert mineral and is what commercial soap makers (Unilever, etc.) use to make soap white. It's in just about anything that's either opaque or pastel colored.

Part of the reason why TD has been in the news recently is that sunscreen companies have started to manufacture TD as nanoparticles. Then, you can can a mineral sunscreen without having a white layer on your skin. However, these particles are so small that there's a concern they could enter the body and travel far away from the skin. There haven't been studies on TD's impact on your liver, for example. However, you're not going to be buying nanoparticles.

If you buy TD from a reputable supplier and you take precautions to not inhale the dust in large quantities, you and your soap user will be fine.

 

[Genny]

Titanium dioxide dust is carcinogenic. And I think you're not supposed to eat it in large quantities. (However, it's often use to whiten up skim milk and it's in toothpaste.)
If you buy TD from a reputable supplier and you take precautions to not inhale the dust in large quantities, you and your soap user will be fine.

It's not really the dust in the finished Titanium Dioxide that could potentially be a problem, it's the dust being produced during manufacturing the product. (I wasn't sure if that's what you meant, so just thought I'd add it for clarity)

But I'd still wear a mask when using it, just like with working with any powder.

 

[Suisan2]

It's not really the dust in the finished Titanium Dioxide that could potentially be a problem, it's the dust being produced during manufacturing the product. (I wasn't sure if that's what you meant, so just thought I'd add it for clarity)

Thanks for the help! I knew that, but when I typed it out I combined two concepts. :roll:

But I'd still wear a mask when using it, just like with working with any powder.

Any dust entering the lungs, especially mineral dusts, can cause real problems. But that doesn't mean the the dust itself is toxic, just that lungs are sensitive things.

 

[IrishLass]

How much does cure speed up, if you put it in an oven on 120F over night anyway? What is the practical result of this?

For me, it ensures that my soap goes fully through the gel stage. Gelled soap has a shorter cure rate than ungelled soap. It cuts about 2 weeks off of my cure time so that instead of having to wait 6 weeks for my soap to be its earliest best, it only takes 4 weeks. Although I've noticed that my gelled soap still improves some even beyond 4 weeks, it's adequately satisfactory enough for me to use at 4 weeks.

Thank you once more, for clearing a whole heap of different questions for me here. So here is another few!

What about titanium dioxide for whitening the soap. Its used in about 70% of all cosmetic products, but is supposedly harmful and carcinogenic. Again im asking you this here because i like to hear different opinions and points of view. Im not to keen on using it, but would like to make my soap whiter.

From all that I've read on the subject myself, I agree with what Genny and Suisan2 said. The dust produced during manufacturing seems to be the problem, as well as TD in nanoparticle form. The kind that we soapers use in soap is not the nanoparticle form. To be safe from accidentally breathing any in, though, I use a dust mask when working with TD and other colorants, especially mica colorants which particularly tend to fly everywhere.

Since i use coconut and olive oil for my usual base mixed 2:1 and i get a yellowish kinda bar. But i want to play around with different colours and for that i need a little whiter goo. What are the best white(er) oils and the most affordable ones you can name (i dont use lard)

Well, since you don't use lard, the next best and least expensive fats that lend whiteness to soap (off the top of my head) are beef tallow, shortening, palm oil, PKO (palm kernel oil), and coconut oil. After that, things get more expensive with refined shea butter, refined cocoa butter, babassu oil, refined kokum butter, refined mango butter, and refined illipe butter, etc...

Hopefully more people will chime in.


IrishLass

 

[Suisan2]

The thing about a really white base though is that in order to get a deep saturated color, you have to counteract the white. My daughter's an artist -- we just had a long talk about this last night (not about soap, but about glassblowing).

TD makes anything it touches opaque, which is really hard to color over unless you go for opaque plus black. If you add TD to a soap, you are going to end up with pastel colors, and if you start with a white base (with no minerals added) you are going to have to add MORE colorant than if you start with a non-white base, even if it's only a pale cream.

However, since most soaps are yellow, you are going to end up with browns, darker reds, muddy greens, and you are going to have trouble getting to a bright blue, for example. Just because you are mixing with yellow, your colors aren't going to be quite what they look like in the jar.

One way to get around this is to use FD&C colors. They're strong enough to jump over your base color.

In the shorter version, if you are looking to get colors, then use colors. If you are looking to get white, then TD is your friend. But you don't have to get pure white in order to color. That's what experimentation and note taking is all about.

(And if you want a real color challenge, take up glassblowing where the glass is glowing yellow or orange while you work it, a lot of the colors don't even show while hot, and even then the colors shift enormously while cooling.)

 

[Kansas Farm Girl]

You asked [What are the best white(er) oils and the most affordable ones you can name (i dont use lard) ], Does that mean you do not use any animal fats or just lard? Beef tallow makes a nice white soap, even when olive oil is also used. [/quote]

 

[new12soap]

What about titanium dioxide for whitening the soap. Its used in about 70% of all cosmetic products, but is supposedly harmful and carcinogenic. Again im asking you this here because i like to hear different opinions and points of view. Im not to keen on using it, but would like to make my soap whiter. Since i use coconut and olive oil for my usual base mixed 2:1 and i get a yellowish kinda bar. But i want to play around with different colours and for that i need a little whiter goo. What are the best white(er) oils and the most affordable ones you can name (i dont use lard)

Most soaps high in OO will start out rather yellow-ish but lighten up to very nearly white with a nice long cure. How long are you curing your soap? A castille can take 6 months or longer to turn a nice white.

 

[mrWho19]

I only use vegetable oils so even though tallow is nice and white, i will rather give it a try with the Titanium dioxide and palm oil. Since TO is already in the micas i use, i dont think using it in pure form will be any more dangerous. What can is say, i like to walk on the wild side. By the way, does any one know where i could buy Sustainable palm oil. EU based online store is preferable.

So i have some problems with my soaps. If you could help me with this:

All the latest CP soaps have little white specks on the surface and it seems to me like there are tiny little air bubbles trapped in the soap. And the HP soap has gotten this shiny surface, like it was polished. As soon as i figure out how to upload pictures here i will show you...

How long are you curing your soap?

Since i only started with soap making i dont yet know how long should i cure my soaps. The very first batch was white for the first couple of weeks, but is now turning yellow and the second batch was green and is now turning blue (it was a yellow goo to which i added peacock blue mica). The HP soap i made is good to use(has tested ph of about 10 and is skin friendly) , but has gotten this shiny surface and i dont know if that is ok and if cure time has anything to do with it. Plus all of my soaps ar a bit to soft for my taste, again i dont know in cure has anything to do with it. So i have literally no idea how long should i cure my soaps. I quess about 6 weeks would be good but longer the better?

And if you want a real color challenge, take up glassblowing

Maybe after i truly master the art of soap making i will look for a new challenge and this sound just like a thing for me.. But for now i have my hands full with trying to make the colors come to life in my soaps. Not as simple as i first thought though.

Although I've noticed that my gelled soap still improves some even beyond 4 weeks

Silly question, but how do you know your soap is improving?

 

[IrishLass]

I

Although I've noticed that my gelled soap still improves some even beyond 4 weeks

Silly question, but how do you know your soap is improving?

I haven't done this in awhile since I have my formulas 'down pat' as they say, but I chose a bar from my batch and used it periodically at different times throughout cure, making sure to jot down notes each time as to how it felt to my skin and how it performed in the lathering department. When comparing notes at the end of 4 to 6 weeks, I was able to see the improvement.


IrishLass