Soap Is Not Moisturizing?

[Donee']

When it comes to living a healthy and natural lifestyle, what you put on your body is just as significant as what you put in your body. Your skin is the largest organ of your body and since it is porous, it absorbs whatever you put on it.

A study published in the American Journal of Public Health looked into the skin’s absorption rates of chemicals found in drinking water. It showed that the skin absorbed an average of 64% of total contaminant dosage.1Other studies found the face to be several times more permeable than broad body surfaces and an absorption rate of 100% for underarms and genitalia.2 And another peer-reviewed study showed 100% absorption for fragrance ingredients.3

It is easy to see that what we use on our skin ends up inside our bodies. So it is important to pay close attention to the ingredients in our skin care products. If the products you use contain harmful ingredients such as harsh, toxic chemicals, colors, and fragrances, those ingredients make their way into your body, your blood and lymphatic system. The majority of mainstream body care products contain a cocktail of carcinogenic chemicals, allergens, and irritants.

To eliminate a lot of toxic chemicals, preservatives, and fragrances that are harmful to our bodies, choose certified organic and natural skin care products. It is important to read labels and become educated about what ingredients to avoid when selecting body care products. A good motto to go by is if you can’t pronounce it or have only seen it in chemistry class, don’t use it! Petroleum derivatives, preservatives, synthetic fragrances and dyes go by many names. A few examples of common ingredients to steer clear of are Cocoamidopropyl Betaine, Olefin Sulfonate, Sodium Luaroyl Sarcosinate, Potassium Cocoyl Glutamate, Sulfates, Parabens, and Phenoxyethanol. Following is an example of a mainstream product and the synthetic ingredients it contains:

Vaseline Intensive Care Dry Skin Lotion
Ingredients from packaging: ACTIVE INGREDIENT: ETHYLHEXYL P-METHOXYCINNAMATE (SPF 5). OTHER INGREDIENTS: WATER, GLYCERIN, STEARIC ACID, GLYCOL STEARATE, SUNFLOWER SEED OIL, SOYA STEROL, LECITHIN, TOCOPHERYL ACETATE, RETINYL PALMITATE, DIMETHICONE, GLYCERYL STEARATE, CETYL ALCOHOL, TEA, MAGNESIUM ALUMINUM SILICATE, FRAGRANCE, CARBOMER, STEARAMIDE AMP, CORN OIL, METHYLPARABEN, DMDM HYDANTOIN, IODOPROPYNYL BUTYLCARBAMATE, DISODIUM EDTA, PG, BHT, TITANIUM DIOXIDE, YELLOW NO. 10.

By selecting organic and natural products for yourself and your family, you are taking a big step toward a healthier lifestyle. The developing organs of babies and children are particularly sensitive to chemicals so it is especially important to use safe products for your youngsters. Down to Earth has a wide selection of natural and organic body care products. Look for even more in the near future as our team is working hard to ensure that DTE carries the purest products available

The WASH IN effect - very interesting

Abstract
Skin decontamination is a primary interventional method used to decrease dermal absorption of hazardous contaminants, including chemical warfare agents, pesticides and industrial pollutants. Soap and water wash, the most common and readily available decontamination system, may enhance percutaneous absorption through the "wash-in effect." To understand better the effect of soap-water wash on percutaneous penetration, and provide insight to improving skin decontamination methods, in vitro human epidermal penetration rates of four C(14) -labeled model chemicals (hydroquinone, clonidine, benzoic acid and paraoxon) were assayed using flow-through diffusion cells. Stratum corneum (SC) absorption rates of these chemicals at various hydration levels (0-295% of the dry SC weights) were determined and compared with the results of the epidermal penetration study to clarify the effect of SC hydration on skin permeability. Results showed accelerated penetration curves of benzoic acid and paraoxon after surface wash at 30 min postdosing. Thirty minutes after washing (60 min postdosing), penetration rates of hydroquinone and benzoic acid decreased due to reduced amounts of chemical on the skin surface and in the SC. At the end of the experiment (90 min postdosing), a soap-water wash resulted in lower hydroquinone penetration, greater paraoxon penetration and similar levels of benzoic acid and clonidine penetration compared to penetration levels in the non-wash groups. The observed wash-in effect agrees with the enhancement effect of SC hydration on the SC chemical absorption rate. These results suggest SC hydration derived from surface wash to be one cause of the wash-in effect. Further, the occurrence of a wash-in effect is dependent on chemical identity and elapsed time between exposure and onset of decontamination. By reducing chemical residue quantity on skin surface and in the SC reservoir, the soap-water wash may decrease the total quantity of chemical absorbed in the long term; however, the more immediate accelerated absorption of chemical toxins, particularly chemical warfare agents, may be lethal.

 

[Marilyn Norgart]

By selecting organic and natural products for yourself and your family, you are taking a big step toward a healthier lifestyle. The developing organs of babies and children are particularly sensitive to chemicals so it is especially important to use safe products for your youngsters. Down to Earth has a wide selection of natural and organic body care products. Look for even more in the near future as our team is working hard to ensure that DTE carries the purest products available

do you work for Down to Earth or this a quote from another article, just wondering

 

[Donee']

Ag i dunno - there is SOOOO much on skin absorption - i think just go with what works - if you make an acne soap with charcoal and tea tree and the acne clears up - then it works.
Some countries are incredibly protective of the big corporations and that why there are so many rules and regulations - sgtrange that the big corporations are completely allowed to put whatever claims they like on the label but artisinal soapmakers are not.
just saying.

do you work for Down to Earth or this a quote from another article, just wondering

just a copy and paste
but all the white papers on skin absorption are out there and are to long to copy and paste.
There are millions and millions of studies about skin aborption

 

[Sultana]

It just seems a complete hypocrisy when people say that soap only cleans (Ihave also been through the "burning at the stake" scenario) - my simple and confirmed logic comes down to one question
"why bother with all the oil combinations if soap "only cleans"
No one has managed to answer that question in any form of intelligent logic for me yet.
I did do a whole lot of research into white papers written by chemists, professors and the like only to discover that soap has more qualities than "just cleaning" and that the skin has many many more qualities than just "being cleaned"
Do yourself a favour and go google benefits of soap AND make sure to google the absorbent rate of soap on the skin e.g. how many layers and how quickly the ingredients in soap get absorbed into those layers.
If hand made soap is indeed only for cleaning then why are there never ending threads on oil combinations and the benefits thereof.
PLUS an interesting article I found about how soap was discovered revealed that soap was initially used as an ointment.
But dogma is dogma and sometimes you just have to do your own thing and do your own research.

Having said that I can speak from personal and business experience that I make and sell medicinal soap and its going very well. I sell to pharmacies and homeopaths and the like and they would know wouldnt they?

I think it has more to do with the fact if you claim that your soap does anything but clean ie you say it moisturizes then it falls under a drug because you are making a claim.

 

[Clarice]

people mostly think of organs being on the "inside" but I have heard it said that 0ur skin is our biggest organ - it makes sense to me that what we put on this precious organ is as important as what we put in our bodies! So much to learn! Sometimes frustrating given conflicting information!

 

[Donee']

people mostly think of organs being on the "inside" but I have heard it said that 0ur skin is our biggest organ - it makes sense to me that what we put on this precious organ is as important as what we put in our bodies! So much to learn! Sometimes frustrating given conflicting information!

My best suggestion would be do your own research and come up with your own conclusions - but mostly i would suggest that you try medicinal soap and hand out a few and then see the feedback. Always best to do the practise.
There are many people who still believe that the skin is only the skin and has no other duties in our bodies and that soap is only soap - in my personal opinion this is an old fashioned outlook - but if it makes them happy and they prefer to spread that then its their decision.
I never ever super fat either - which is another bone of contention or heated discussion.
But i think that passionate discussion is necessary and appreciated and should not be stopped.

 

[Clarice]

I think it has more to do with the fact if you claim that your soap does anything but clean ie you say it moisturizes then it falls under a drug because you are making a claim.

you are right @Sultana - whenever you claim to alter the state of skin, you are treading dangerously close to drug territory. Cosmetics companies skirt this by using language like:

• Leaves skin feeling......
• with XXXX, known for its XXXX properties (with Vitamin E, known for healing properties)
• etc.

smaller manufacturers also seem to "get away" with more than big guys - simply because they often fly under the radar!

 

[earlene]

is there some difference between soap and shampoo? both basically soap? I have used shampoo that has been marketed here in the US as a shampoo to help psoriasis--which it did help. and there are shampoos that are marketed as cleansing and conditioning. how many people use tar soap for the same reason--granted there has been discussions on the legal end of claiming that it helps but people that use it obviously feel it works or they wouldn't use it for the condition. to me it sounds like our government is saying someone cant say it works but it does. kinda like our government was saying medical marijuana doesn't work until there was a push back on them.

Marilyn, yes there is a difference in shampoos (commercial liquid shampoos) and soap. Most, if not all, commercial shampoos I see on the market are not soap by legal (federally regulated) definition, at least as it pertains to the US federal regulations. I have no idea how these are regulated in all other countries, but the fact that they are primarily made with detergent chemicals, makes them not soap in the US. In the US, if they contain or claim to be medicinal, they are regulated as drugs. The same is true of soap that is claimed to be medicinal in the US; it is regulated as a drug. If the shampoo is simply marketed to clean the hair but is made primarily of detergents (not soap) it is regulated as a cosmetic in the US. So your answers pertain to how it is made, where it is sold and how the regulations of the locale in which it is sold.

South Africa (Donee is in SA) may have entirely different regulations. I have no personal knowledge of SA's regs, but I don know that many members here in the European Union have very stringent regulations that affect them that other parts of the world don't really have to learn unless we 1. want to understand them or 2. plan to sell in the EU.

Does the skin absorb, well of course it does. There isn't a nurse around who has put nitropaste treatment on a patient/client who hasn't learned either by personal experience or were at least taught in Nursing School, that you can get a horrendous headache if you don't wear protective gloves while handling the nitropaste. It's not only about the skin being able to absorb, it's also about the size of the particles. That's why nano particles are so important. The smaller the particle, the more easily it is absorbed via the skin. Too big, and it is not absorbed.

 

[DWinMadison]

I don't know how it works in South Africa, but here in the US - no, they wouldn't. Many are happy to sell/make a buck on almost anything that interests their customers whether the product is truly therapeutic or not, and whether they understand how it works - or not.

I love the smell of capitalism in the morning.

 

[Hendejm]

I’ve chimed in on this subject before professing that soap does not moisturize the skin. While I still believe that is true - I can’t ignore how my skin feels after using handmade soap to wash. Is it placebo effect? Is it because my soaps don’t have added chemicals? Is it the oils left behind when washing?

Water does not moisturize the skin - it is drying on the the skin. While initially hydrating - water accelerates evaporation of water from the skin more quickly - hot water makes this worse. So I’m left thinking that oils left behind either from the soap or from the skin allows more moisture to be retained and not evaporate as swiftly. This could explain why milder soaps are better than harsher soaps for retaining moisture.

I suppose I am left with the notion that soap does not add moisture to the skin - but rather, depending on the soap, it can allow the skin to retain moisture. So finally -I guess I’m in the side that feels that soap does not moisturize the skin but soap CAN allow the skin the remain moisturized depending on formula.

I think the key may be at how well our handmade soap removes oils from the skin. The magic ingredient many not be the oils and butters we add to our soaps - but the natural oils that are naturally on our skin - and whether or not our handmade soaps remove all of our natural oils - or not. Maybe??

 

[Dawni]

I’ve chimed in on this subject before professing that soap does not moisturize the skin. While I still believe that is true - I can’t ignore how my skin feels after using handmade soap to wash. Is it placebo effect? Is it because my soaps don’t have added chemicals? Is it the oils left behind when washing?

Water does not moisturize the skin - it is drying on the the skin. While initially hydrating - water accelerates evaporation of water from the skin more quickly - hot water makes this worse. So I’m left thinking that oils left behind either from the soap or from the skin allows more moisture to be retained and not evaporate as swiftly. This could explain why milder soaps are better than harsher soaps for retaining moisture.

I suppose I am left with the notion that soap does not add moisture to the skin - but rather, depending on the soap, it can allow the skin to retain moisture. So finally -I guess I’m in the side that feels that soap does not moisturize the skin but soap CAN allow the skin the remain moisturized depending on formula.

I think the key may be at how well our handmade soap removes oils from the skin. The magic ingredient many not be the oils and butters we add to our soaps - but the natural oils that are naturally on our skin - and whether or not our handmade soaps remove all of our natural oils - or not. Maybe??

You said it much better than I did earlier in this thread lol

@Donee' I'm curious.. When you say "medicinal soap" what does one contain that makes it different from "regular" handmade soap? I ask coz I've seen and used soap labeled as "ayurvedic" and while some were really nice, some were almost horrible and no better than a syndet bar.

 

[Dean]

As for oil combinations, you'll find a lot of soapers have gone full circle and use a smaller selection of oils than what is available, unless they sell and an oil has label appeal.

I’m one. Experimented with added butters, high SF, SF after cook. Found no benefit. Returned to 4 basic oils: latherer, lather stabilizer, HO and hardener with 5% SF.

I don’t use OO. Some SMFers have reported it to be drying.

What Ive learned is to keep the cleansing value very low...lower than the recommended calc range. A lil CO in my recipie goes a very long way in terms of lather.

 

[Donee']

You said it much better than I did earlier in this thread lol

@Donee' I'm curious.. When you say "medicinal soap" what does one contain that makes it different from "regular" handmade soap? I ask coz I've seen and used soap labeled as "ayurvedic" and while some were really nice, some were almost horrible and no better than a syndet bar.

I agree with you on the disgusting so called medicinal bars out there.
"Medicinal" really came from me going blind doing research on the skin itself and what the skin does. I have always believed that with the skin being the biggest organ it should be treated as a seaparate (but together) organ - and that skin has its own issues (a lot comes from internal issues but a lot are just the skin itself) - so I didnt want to compete with the pretty perfumed market out there and wanted to promote and produce something more practical that can actually help people.
Plus with being a beach baby and a hiker and generally a crazy white person running around in the bush in South Africas Sun I couldnt find anything for my own skin. So my bars are very plain, without great packaging and no chemical additives (colours perfumes etc - i know there are natural colours and perfumes but i didnt want it for the medicinal range.

I have split my label into four categories:
Medicinal
Novelty
Luxury
Private Label

But my passion has always been herbs and the benefits they give - if we can heal internal with herbs then why can we not heal external was my question- which is why i practise hoodoo poisen path - herbal remedies are the way to go and more and more of the millenials are now returning to their "roots" so to say. Please dont think i am an expert of any sort - I will be a novice till the day I die - but the journey is great.

I am busy testing a soap that I put citronella into to ward off mozzies and flies - have given out 27 bars to game rangers and the like - feedback is really good. Target market are tourists and outdoorsy people like myself.

Having said the above - i must add that BALANCE between science and nature is key. Cant just go and chuck your blood pressure tablets away because you found a herb that controls blood pressure now can you

Although the modern version is that nature IS science.
Oh i dont know - i have a flamingo poo filled brain right now. And I pulled 46 muscles (they are growing up)

 

[lenarenee]

Because it’s obvious that this is a touchy subject, and if I ask 20 people the same question, I’ll probably get 20 different answers, I just want you all to know that we are all Soap Making Friends, and I value everyone’s input equally. Until there is definitive proof of soaps true moisturizing value, I don’t think anyone is right or wrong.

At the end of the day, you’re the one that uses your soap. Your clients are the ones using your soap. Your family are the ones using your soap. If it makes them happy, that’s all that matters [emoji267]

Touchy? Did I miss something? I thought we getting a good discussion going....everybody bringing their opinions and ideas to discuss us and ponder? It's an interesting topic and I'd like to get to a factual conclusion eventually. The more people learning and discussing the better.

 

[Donee']

is there some difference between soap and shampoo? both basically soap? I have used shampoo that has been marketed here in the US as a shampoo to help psoriasis--which it did help. and there are shampoos that are marketed as cleansing and conditioning. how many people use tar soap for the same reason--granted there has been discussions on the legal end of claiming that it helps but people that use it obviously feel it works or they wouldn't use it for the condition. to me it sounds like our government is saying someone cant say it works but it does. kinda like our government was saying medical marijuana doesn't work until there was a push back on them.

I read somewhere or heard somewhere that commercial soap and shampoo are basically detergents

Touchy? Did I miss something? I thought we getting a good discussion going....everybody bringing their opinions and ideas to discuss us and ponder? It's an interesting topic and I'd like to get to a factual conclusion eventually. The more people learning and discussing the better.

Some of the people do get a tad overboard with their convictions and then get all personal - I have been referred to as a troll and my country as non handwashing and and and - personally I am with you on the passionate discussion and questioning and debating and then coming to a conclusion. Similar to a bunch of lawyers discussing a specific sentence in a law and how it can be interpreted or misinterpreted.
There are also always a group that just wont budge - the dogma - it is this way or no way.
I say keep it rolling. I am loving the discussion

 

[Hendejm]

Touchy? Did I miss something? I thought we getting a good discussion going....everybody bringing their opinions and ideas to discuss us and ponder? It's an interesting topic and I'd like to get to a factual conclusion eventually. The more people learning and discussing the better.

There have been other discussions on this subject and there is a certain faction on this forum that will not budge in their beliefs regarding this issue (I may have been one of those people - ha!). They refuse to acknowledge that the soap industry is not a “one size fits all” mentality. So many variables come into play regarding soap - recipe, cure time, washing habits, drying habits, water hardness, climate, additives, perception, etc. So I believe it is something that can not be definitively answered.

In my soap business, I choose to err on the side of caution and not make any medicinal claims. But I will say things like “ leaves skin feeling refreshed” or “nourishing oils and butters that gently clean the skin”. That may make me too much like a politician - but I don’t want to overstate or misinform my customer so I keep it vague and allow them to reach their own conclusions.

 

[lenarenee]

is there some difference between soap and shampoo? both basically soap? I have used shampoo that has been marketed here in the US as a shampoo to help psoriasis--which it did help. and there are shampoos that are marketed as cleansing and conditioning. how many people use tar soap for the same reason--granted there has been discussions on the legal end of claiming that it helps but people that use it obviously feel it works or they wouldn't use it for the condition. to me it sounds like our government is saying someone cant say it works but it does. kinda like our government was saying medical marijuana doesn't work until there was a push back on them.

Shampoos are surfactants. Don't know how that does or does affect the situation. There's also anti fungal shampoo like Head and Shoulders, but does it work? Personal experience with myself and others is inconclusive because some say it helps but others say no. And not all flaky itchy scalps are dandruff so that throws another wrenchin our problem solving.

 

[DWinMadison]

I’ve chimed in on this subject before professing that soap does not moisturize the skin. While I still believe that is true - I can’t ignore how my skin feels after using handmade soap to wash. Is it placebo effect? Is it because my soaps don’t have added chemicals? Is it the oils left behind when washing?

Water does not moisturize the skin - it is drying on the the skin. While initially hydrating - water accelerates evaporation of water from the skin more quickly - hot water makes this worse. So I’m left thinking that oils left behind either from the soap or from the skin allows more moisture to be retained and not evaporate as swiftly. This could explain why milder soaps are better than harsher soaps for retaining moisture.

I suppose I am left with the notion that soap does not add moisture to the skin - but rather, depending on the soap, it can allow the skin to retain moisture. So finally -I guess I’m in the side that feels that soap does not moisturize the skin but soap CAN allow the skin the remain moisturized depending on formula.

I think the key may be at how well our handmade soap removes oils from the skin. The magic ingredient many not be the oils and butters we add to our soaps - but the natural oils that are naturally on our skin - and whether or not our handmade soaps remove all of our natural oils - or not. Maybe??

^This guy. I agree. I can make this observation about the skin absorption thing. I've been on a strict weight loss (diet and exercised regimen) since Jan 2nd. (23 lbs lost in 63 days! *=@#&[fireworks]#*@+. Anyway, I weigh daily...sometimes several times. I have noticed that usually when I weigh before a shower and after, even though I dry off totally, I will have pickup about 1/3 pound on average while in the shower. The only thing that could be is water that my skin has absorbed--at least temporarily. For a while I thought my scales must have that much variability, but it's almost always a weight gain. The only time I lose weight in the shower is when...well...a Seinfeld episode comes to mind. (Oh, we've all done it. Get off my case!)

 

[lenarenee]

I’ve chimed in on this subject before professing that soap does not moisturize the skin. While I still believe that is true - I can’t ignore how my skin feels after using handmade soap to wash. Is it placebo effect? Is it because my soaps don’t have added chemicals? Is it the oils left behind when washing?

Water does not moisturize the skin - it is drying on the the skin. While initially hydrating - water accelerates evaporation of water from the skin more quickly - hot water makes this worse. So I’m left thinking that oils left behind either from the soap or from the skin allows more moisture to be retained and not evaporate as swiftly. This could explain why milder soaps are better than harsher soaps for retaining moisture.

I suppose I am left with the notion that soap does not add moisture to the skin - but rather, depending on the soap, it can allow the skin to retain moisture. So finally -I guess I’m in the side that feels that soap does not moisturize the skin but soap CAN allow the skin the remain moisturized depending on formula

I think the key may be at how well our handmade soap removes oils from the skin. The magic ingredient many not be the oils and butters we add to our soaps - but the natural oils that are naturally on our skin - and whether or not our handmade soaps remove all of our natural oils - or not. Maybe??

Water dries the skin? After a long exposure maybe?

And yes, that sounds logical to me.

As much as I would like to contact Proctor and Gamble in hope of finding a physiologist and chemist to pose this question to, I bet they're forbidden to talk.

Donee, your post (#21) were those your words or from someone's website? The skin does NOT absorb everything, and that is a fact. The conditions such as molecular size and electrical charge control that. There are protein "doorways" in every cell that control what gets in or doesn't. Some oils can affect that, sometimes allowing moleclues to enter when they normally wouldn't.

There's also a difference between permeate, absorb, and utulize. So even if something is found in the skin, it's not necessarily utilized or integrates into the body systems. The deeper layers of the skin are designed to constantly kill it's own cells (so to speak) push up and out of the body, and that removes some of those chemicals the get into the skin, but aren't processed.

Even many facial anti aging creams are useless because the moleclues can't enter the cell. Emu oil is one oil that does help cause absorption and is even used to make certain Rx topical medications.

But that's pretty much all I know; I don't have a list of things that do get into the body (although many heavy metals d0).

 

[cmzaha]

is there some difference between soap and shampoo? both basically soap? I have used shampoo that has been marketed here in the US as a shampoo to help psoriasis--which it did help. and there are shampoos that are marketed as cleansing and conditioning. how many people use tar soap for the same reason--granted there has been discussions on the legal end of claiming that it helps but people that use it obviously feel it works or they wouldn't use it for the condition. to me it sounds like our government is saying someone cant say it works but it does. kinda like our government was saying medical marijuana doesn't work until there was a push back on them.

Shampoo is usually synthetic based, and this has been discussed a zillion times. Being a synthetic "shampoo" has a lower ph and much gentler on the hair. Chaz tried jumping on the "Natural" band wagon by making a product line that originally was a lye based LS, it has completely disappeared and in the lawsuit against they do no directly mention is was Liquid Soap. I told my husband when I had looked it up, before the law suit, that he was going to have a problem, there is no lye soap in his Conditioning Shampoos now. His Conditioning Shampoo is more like shampooing with lotion.

I do feel differences between different combinations of fatty acids. I have been using my 100% non lathering AVO and it leaves my skin feeling soft not mosistured. This is a bar made with a 2% SF and vinegar for water. I simply consider it less stripping.

@Donee' in the US we can make NO claims, so no medicinal soaps.

@Marilyn Norgart Pine Tar is an old old remedy for psoriasis and is most likely still found in some Dandruff Shampoos. At one pine tar was the main ingredient in dandruff and shampoos for Psoriasis.