So many weeks to cure...

[AlexanderMakesSoap]

I know I've read many a post about this, but there doesn't seem to be a real consensus. Can anyone tell me what exactly happens during the curing process that results in improved lather?

I've made several soaps at high lye concentration (40-48%), but it still seems like I need at least 4 weeks of cure time before the soap is really any good. And the soap just continues to improve with more time. I've read others saying their soap is good after 2-3 weeks using a high lye concentration, but this doesn't hold true for any of the soaps I've experimented with so far.

So why is this?

Is it that last tiny bit of saponification that takes place after the 98% (or so?) that occurs during the first 48 hours. Or is it the slow process of the soap continuing to dry out even though I'm using about as little water as possible to begin with?

Or is there something else?

Just curious what you all think.

-Alexander

 

[AliOop]

Here are two good articles about the science of curing:

Classical Bells: Soapy Stuff, curing

Ultimate Guide to Soap: Benefits of Curing

TL, DR version: science shows that curing isn't just about completing the saponification, or water evaporation, but also soap crystal formation in both CP and HP soap.

ETA: some soap formulations do much better with longer than a "standard" cure: castille or other high OO soaps; salt soaps; and high lard soaps.

 

[amd]

https://classicbells.com/soap/cure.asp
ETA: Jinx with AliOop

 

[AliOop]

@amd According to my grandsons, that means I cannot speak until you "release" me.

 

[AlexanderMakesSoap]

According to my grandsons, that means I cannot speak until you "release" me.

Nah, I think it just means you owe her a soda!

Thanks for the articles - I just skimmed through them and this makes a lot of sense! Crystallization is that missing piece I somehow hadn't come across yet...

I guess there's just no rushing soap. I haven't tried HP yet, just CP OP.

 

[Obsidian]

I guess there's just no rushing soap. I haven't tried HP yet, just CP OP.

Nope, no rushing soap. HP needs to cure just like CP does.

 

[msunnerstood]

I make HP soap and I concur. Technically you could use HP soap after 2 weeks but it would be a waste because number one it wouldn't be a good soap and number 2 it would dissolve much more quickly. 4-6weeks Is the guideline I use depending on the type of oils I use

 

[cmzaha]

Final Answer...Soap simply takes time and patience.

 

[jcandleattic]

Technically you could use HP soap after 2 weeks but it would be a waste because number one it wouldn't be a good soap

Technically once a soap is fully saponified (CP or HP) it is safe to use. That means you can use HP soap as soon as it comes out of the mold, and CP soap 24-72 hours after it's made.
But as stated, yes, it would be a waste. CP would be very harsh, and rough to the skin, and both would end up dissolving so much faster than a fully cured soap.

I view soap the same way I view a fine wine. The older the better...

 

[AlexanderMakesSoap]

Thanks for all the replies all! If there's one thing I do know after making my first couple dozen bars, it's that it does take time (at least to have a nicely soaping bar) and the more the better.

What I really wanted to know was why - what exactly needs to happen? And I think AliOop hit the nail on the head with her post and links above.

I've been meaning to get Scientific Soapmaking. One of these days...

 

[msunnerstood]

Technically once a soap is fully saponified (CP or HP) it is safe to use. That means you can use HP soap as soon as it comes out of the mold, and CP soap 24-72 hours after it's made.
But as stated, yes, it would be a waste. CP would be very harsh, and rough to the skin, and both would end up dissolving so much faster than a fully cured soap.

I view soap the same way I view a fine wine. The older the better...

By good I didnt mean unsafe, I meant quality wise

 

[Hope Ann]

Technically once a soap is fully saponified (CP or HP) it is safe to use. That means you can use HP soap as soon as it comes out of the mold, and CP soap 24-72 hours after it's made.
But as stated, yes, it would be a waste. CP would be very harsh, and rough to the skin, and both would end up dissolving so much faster than a fully cured soap.

I disagree with the absolute that CP soap is ALWAYS harsh and rough to skin with a 2-÷ day cure. I have a formula that is very creamy lather (in hard water no less) with nice after feel on hands - not drying at all. I've done some small tweaks on it variations and a few batches and they're all very usable and actually quite long lasting pretty much right off the bat. That said I use it that early only for myself for testing their development over time, and wouldn't gift until they've had a 4-8 week cure. But they are really surprisingly lovely early on whether on hands or whole body.

I do agree that IN GENERAL it's best to cure for 4-8 weeks or longer.

Hope

 

[jcandleattic]

I disagree with the absolute that CP soap is ALWAYS harsh and rough to skin with a 2-÷ day cure. I have a formula that is very creamy lather (in hard water no less) with nice after feel on hands - not drying at all.

As compared to what? Commercial soaps? Or a well cured CP soap? Because that's what curing does. It makes the soap milder and less harsh than an uncured soap.
I agree that an uncured soap is less harsh than a commercial soap, but not a well cured soap of the same recipe.

 

[AlexanderMakesSoap]

I disagree with the absolute that CP soap is ALWAYS harsh and rough to skin with a 2-÷ day cure. I have a formula that is very creamy lather (in hard water no less) with nice after feel on hands - not drying at all. I've done some small tweaks on it variations and a few batches and they're all very usable and actually quite long lasting pretty much right off the bat. That said I use it that early only for myself for testing their development over time, and wouldn't gift until they've had a 4-8 week cure. But they are really surprisingly lovely early on whether on hands or whole body.

I do agree that IN GENERAL it's best to cure for 4-8 weeks or longer.

Hope

So what's the formula!? I'm always looking for something new to try out, in case you feel like sharing.

The few soaps I tried within a week or less of making, were all pretty weak, lather-wise (except for the super high coconut oil formulas). I did find that they worked more or less just fine though, in terms of cleaning my body. They were all slightly irritating to my facial skin though, which tends to be on the easily irritated side to begin with, when it comes to soap.

 

[Hope Ann]

So what's the formula!? I'm always looking for something new to try out, in case you feel like sharing.

I'm working on finalizing tweaks to this as my base formula for when I sell so don't want to share. But I can tell you that lard and butters will make a creamy lather. Additives can also make a huge difference.

Hope

 

[AlexanderMakesSoap]

I'm working on finalizing tweaks to this as my base formula for when I sell so don't want to share. But I can tell you that lard and butters will make a creamy lather. Additives can also make a huge difference.

Hope

I understand Hope - I hope you sell tons of it! We're lardless vegan soapers here anyway, so I guess I'll never know the lovely lather of lard...

 

[Hope Ann]

As compared to what? Commercial soaps? Or a well cured CP soap? Because that's what curing does. It makes the soap milder and less harsh than an uncured soap.
I agree that an uncured soap is less harsh than a commercial soap, but not a well cured soap of the same recipe.

This particular formula in the first week is already gentle and non-stripping, unlike some well cured formulas I've tried - both of my own making and purchased from various sources. It continues to improve with age but my testers get used a lot for hand washing while the big bars are curing and my hands stay soft.

Hope

We're lardless vegan soapers here anyway, so I guess I'll never know the lovely lather of lard...

Butters are great too. One of these days I'll try a 100% shea. I've heard they're suprisingly nice though do need a longer cure. Right now I'm working through different butters to see if they actually make a lather / feel difference, not just hardness differences. Think I want to play with kokum for a shaving soap.

Hope

 

[AlexanderMakesSoap]

This particular formula in the first week is already gentle and non-stripping, unlike some well cured formulas I've tried - both of my own making and purchased from various sources. It continues to improve with age but my testers get used a lot for hand washing while the big bars are curing and my hands stay soft.

Hope



Butters are great too. One of these days I'll try a 100% shea. I've heard they're suprisingly nice though do need a longer cure. Right now I'm working through different butters to see if they actually make a lather / feel difference, not just hardness differences. Think I want to play with kokum for a shaving soap.

Hope

I just tried a 53% Shea soap that has surprisingly good lather (19% babassu 7% castor). Though it seems like most my higher percentage buttery soaps don't lather too great.

I've never tried Kokum as the price is too high compared to cocoa and the numbers are the same on soapcalc....