Shaving Soap, Revisited

[CoopLawStudent]

Alrighty folks, I've taken the considerable wisdom of this forum into account and have radically redesigned my shaving soap. I'm a little protective of this particular formula, so I'll just provide the SoapCalc numbers in place of the actual ingredients:

Hardness: 57
Cleansing: 5
Conditioning: 40
Bubbly: 28
Creamy: 75
Iodine: 40
INS: 154

And the various acids:

Lauric: 3
Myristic: 2
Palmitic: 8
Stearic: 44
Ricinoleic: 22
Oleic: 15
Linoleic: 2
Linolenic: 0

I have been typically adding 10% ppo of vegetable glycerin, but have been examining some of the best-reviewed shaving soaps, and they seem to use more than that (based on labeling conventions). Has anyone here tried using MORE than 10% ppo? I was thinking 20%, but was concerned that might damage the performance of the soap in some fashion.

Also, does anyone have a recommendation for a way to bring up the conditioning? I'm considering using lanolin, but was wondering if something else might be better.

Thanks in advance!

 

[DragonQueenHHP]

just taging in to see what is said in regards to the glycerin I plan to HP some shaving soaps for yule

 

[Lindy]

Stearic is too low.....

 

[CoopLawStudent]

Stearic is too low.....

44% is too low? It was my understanding from you that it should be over 40%. What would you recommend?

 

[Lilahblossom]

I'm fascinated by all the shaving soap recipes. I make olive oil shaving soap for the guys and gals here. If I can get a fella to use a real shaving soap instead of something out of a can, I consider myself lucky. I see some using tallow in the shaving soap too. I use tallow for my all over beer soap. But when I read that olive oil had been used since ancient times for shaving, I figured that would be good enough for us. I just wish I could get hold of some of that laurel oil that Aleppo uses in their famous soap. I do add some castor and coconut to it for lather but no clay. The guys that do use it don't want me to change the formula at all. So I guess I'm set for now. I am going to continue to read all your posts though. Thankyou forum!

 

[mzz]

I thought stearic should be at least 20 on SoapCalc? :?
And creamy at 55-60 should be enough, but I don't know how it's like at 75.

 

[Seifenblasen]

I just wish I could get hold of some of that laurel oil that Aleppo uses in their famous soap.

http://www.texasnaturalsupply.com/Bay-L ... ylr-eo.htm

 

[CoopLawStudent]

I thought stearic should be at least 20 on SoapCalc? :?
And creamy at 55-60 should be enough, but I don't know how it's like at 75.

You'd think so, but I can attest that for shaving soap, it's not enough. It needs to be denser and thicker than that.

 

[Lindy]

Stearic is too low.....

44% is too low? It was my understanding from you that it should be over 40%. What would you recommend?

You need it up over 60% to get the depth of lather you need for a shaving soap...

I'm fascinated by all the shaving soap recipes. I make olive oil shaving soap for the guys and gals here. If I can get a fella to use a real shaving soap instead of something out of a can, I consider myself lucky. I see some using tallow in the shaving soap too. I use tallow for my all over beer soap. But when I read that olive oil had been used since ancient times for shaving, I figured that would be good enough for us. I just wish I could get hold of some of that laurel oil that Aleppo uses in their famous soap. I do add some castor and coconut to it for lather but no clay. The guys that do use it don't want me to change the formula at all. So I guess I'm set for now. I am going to continue to read all your posts though. Thank you forum!

If you were to go onto the shaving forums you will see that the dyed in the wool wet shavers do not want to even see olive oil anywhere on the label. Tallow however is something they get quite excited about.

I thought stearic should be at least 20 on SoapCalc? :?
And creamy at 55-60 should be enough, but I don't know how it's like at 75.

You'd think so, but I can attest that for shaving soap, it's not enough. It needs to be denser and thicker than that.

When you are looking at your properties you want to see low bubbly and very high creamy. You also want to see high conditioning numbers as well.

To get to the higher stearic numbers you are going to need to add stearic acid as part of your recipe and you are going to need to add 30% at a minimum to get there. I superfat at 8% because the stearic acid is going to make it a bit more drying.

The reason most experienced wet shavers avoid olive oil is that they know it is a lather killer, but they don't understand that with good formulating you are going to be able to use the olive oil as a conditioning agent.

Here is something else to consider. When you are serious about making a good shaving soap you can't just say "Hey look at how fantastic this soap recipe is, I bet it would make a nice shaving soap". Repurposing your soap that way is not going to lead to a hugely successful shaving soap. Instead,r consider what properties you are looking for in a shaving soap, or what the experienced shavers are looking for. Now examine your oils, which oils are going to produce those conditions/properties? What additives do I need? What will each additive contribute to the mix? This is what is going to lead you to a great product. Then, and you must be super brave on this next step, with a thick skin, go onto one of the shaving forums and ask for testers. You don't need more than 5, but you need them to give you straight up, honest feedback. When you get the feedback don't start defending your product, instead takes notes, figure out how to get what they are asking for and see if there is a consensus. If there is then that is the area you need to focus on.

 

[Lindy]

I forgot to mention that it took me over a year to get my shaving soap to the point that I can sell it on the shaving forums and to get it to the last step a soaping friend pointed me toward the final tweaks needed to get it up over the top. From there I went into my product testing which took another 3 months of fine tuning so don't expect an overnight success on this. You may think you have the bomb of shaving soap but until you have the experts say so, you really don't. But you will have better than most by doing the research... :wink:

 

[CoopLawStudent]

I forgot to mention that it took me over a year to get my shaving soap to the point that I can sell it on the shaving forums and to get it to the last step a soaping friend pointed me toward the final tweaks needed to get it up over the top. From there I went into my product testing which took another 3 months of fine tuning so don't expect an overnight success on this. You may think you have the bomb of shaving soap but until you have the experts say so, you really don't. But you will have better than most by doing the research... :wink:

I'm actually a wet shaver myself (and a member of Badger & Blade as well as reddit's /r/wicked_edge), so I know exactly what I'm looking for. That's a great point about the experts, though. But since I'm a student and thus on a limited budget, I'm trying to do this in as few iterations as possible.

Thus, having taken your suggestions into account, here are my new numbers:

Hardness: 68
Cleansing: 5
Conditioning: 31
Bubbly: 16
Creamy: 73
Iodine: 32
INS: 163

Acids

Lauric: 3
Myristic: 3
Palmitic: 9
Stearic: 53
Ricinoleic: 11
Oleic: 17
Linoleic: 2
Linolenic: 0

Additionally, do you happen to know anything about increasing the percentages of glycerin in the soap? Is that a pipe dream? Trade secret (totally understandable)?

Thanks for all your help!

 

[Lindy]

What's your user name on B&B (if you don't mind telling me), I'm Malaspina.

Okay back to work here. You can add glycerin at about 5% and it will do a couple of things - increase your lather as well as add conditioning to the end result. It' great that you are already a wet shaver so you do know what you are looking for. Bump up the stearic acid a bit more to get that number up over 60%.

 

[Lilahblossom]

Created in 1974, the traditional soap factory Martin de Candre has chosen to emphasize on one of its specialities, with a high demand : the shaving soap..

It is really a "soap", that is a paste that we realise entirely in the factory as from the saponification between 100% vegetable oils (olive, coprah) and with potasse (Alcali). The particularity of this shaving soap is the development of an abundant foam, which stick to the skin : you obtain on the face, a sweet and unctuous cream.
With the shaving soap Martin de Candre, shaving becomes a real pleasure !
This is one of the shaving soaps that are featured and talked about in a shaving forum? It is olive oil based. Made in France. This is the only forum I looked at though. You are most likely right about the tallow shave soap.

 

[CoopLawStudent]

Created in 1974, the traditional soap factory Martin de Candre has chosen to emphasize on one of its specialities, with a high demand : the shaving soap..

It is really a "soap", that is a paste that we realise entirely in the factory as from the saponification between 100% vegetable oils (olive, coprah) and with potasse (Alcali). The particularity of this shaving soap is the development of an abundant foam, which stick to the skin : you obtain on the face, a sweet and unctuous cream.
With the shaving soap Martin de Candre, shaving becomes a real pleasure !
This is one of the shaving soaps that are featured and talked about in a shaving forum? It is olive oil based. Made in France. This is the only forum I looked at though. You are most likely right about the tallow shave soap.

Actually, it has no olive oil in it at all. Observe: http://shavenook.com/thread-martin-de-c ... aving-soap

Very simple, but no olive oil. Lindy is correct that very few (VERY few) decent shaving soaps used olive oil, and even then, it's in exceptionally small amounts to avoid the damage it does to latherability.

Stearic acid, tallow, and coconut oil are the basis of pretty much every decent shaving soap.

 

[Lindy]

Lilahblossom the other thing to keep in mind is you have to know your market. If you are selling it to hardcore wetshavers almost all of them shy away from anything with Olive Oil in it even though you and I both know that if the product is properly formulated the olive oil is going to add conditioning properties to it. However perception is everything and you need to know what the perceptions are if you want to be able to seriously market the product to the wet shaving community. At least that has been my experience.

 

[Lilahblossom]

Lindy I know you are right. I just quizzed DH mercilessly re: my shaving soap. He has a heavy beard and wears a partial beard but has sensitive Norske skin. He says that my shaving soap has great slip but it does not lather the same as some others. He says the lather lasts thru the whole shave and his face feels baby soft afterwards and it has been long lasting. But I see on the forums that the guys like the thick heavy lather that the tallow must provide. He is happy with the shaving soap he has and told me that the thick lather doesn't mean it will shave better. So for now I think it will stay the same formula since winter is coming on and they need that extra softness. I am going to make a small test batch though with the tallow.
Thankyou again Lindy!

 

[judymoody]

Lindy I know you are right. I just quizzed DH mercilessly re: my shaving soap. He has a heavy beard and wears a partial beard but has sensitive Norske skin. He says that my shaving soap has great slip but it does not lather the same as some others. He says the lather lasts thru the whole shave and his face feels baby soft afterwards and it has been long lasting. But I see on the forums that the guys like the thick heavy lather that the tallow must provide. He is happy with the shaving soap he has and told me that the thick lather doesn't mean it will shave better. So for now I think it will stay the same formula since winter is coming on and they need that extra softness. I am going to make a small test batch though with the tallow.
Thankyou again Lindy!

My husband is similar. He has sensitive skin and we live in a dry climate. He cares more about conditioning than how thick the lather is. It lasts through his shave and he's happy. I don't eat mammals so I don't soap with their fat as a general rule. So I have to make do without tallow. The only exception is if my husband shoots an elk. Then as a special favor to him, I'll render the tallow and make soap for his use alone.

That said, Lindy's point about market perception, olive oil, etc, if one is going to sell, is good advice.

 

[Soapman Ryan]

What's your user name on B&B (if you don't mind telling me), I'm Malaspina.

Okay back to work here. You can add glycerin at about 5% and it will do a couple of things - increase your lather as well as add conditioning to the end result. It' great that you are already a wet shaver so you do know what you are looking for. Bump up the stearic acid a bit more to get that number up over 60%.

Lindy, I'm a DE shaver too and looking to make shave soap for myself, as in Florida we can not sell cosmetics made from our residential home. I'm trying to figure out the stearic number. Question 1.) Stearic on Kokum butter is 56%, but if I only have (let's just say for easy calculation) 10% in my shave soap, does this mean I only have 5.6% stearic acid and I would have to add 54.4% pure stearic acid to get to 60%. Question 2.) Should the 60% be the total including the butters, oils and stearic acid?

 

[Lindy]

Hey Ryan - it should be your combined totals including stearic acid.... You guys really have it rough in Florida!

 

[AngelMomma]

At what percentages would you recommend using the KOH/Naoh? And is there a soap calc that will allow you to input a recipe using both? Maybe this is right in front of me somewhere, just not seeing it(the calc).