Shave soap siezing?

[Dreabkq]

I dont know if sieze is even the correct term.
I have tried 2 different, but similar shave soap recipies this week. Following the instructions, but both immediately went solid as I was adding the lye. No liquid state at all.
The only time google seems to say that happens is with certain EO, but I didnt use any.
I know castor oil is supposed to make things set faster, but even by shampoo bars went through a liquid phase, just only 5 minutes. This is instantaneous as I'm still pouring the lye.
It's the batch in the box, I can take better pictures. Everything else did just fine.
The shave soap is crumbly and still soft after 2 days, feels grainy and had oil drips here and there when I un molded them yesterday. Oddly the 3 jars i made last when i ran out of molds doesnt have the oil. Just so confused as I've never had a fail like this before.

 

[Bladesmith]

I just make shave soap for myself and friends. You didn't include details like recipe, process, etc so I'll make some assumptions.

Usually quality shave soap has very high stearic acid content. Usually this is added in the form of the pure fatty acid. Because the lye isn't having to break down the glycerol bond, it is much easier for it to saponify a pure fatty acid like this. This causes it to "seize" basically immediately as you've mentioned. This is expected.

Also shave soap is usually made via hot process for this reason. While it does "seize" up on me, I just continue to mix, mash, and cook until it no longer zaps.

 

[shunt2011]

To help, we're going to need more information. Your recipe and any additives as well as your process.

 

[IrishLass]

Welcome, Dreabkq!

Ditto what Shunt said......in order to troubleshoot properly, we'll need to know your recipe, additives, and how you went about things.

In the meantime, though, there are a handful of different things that can make soap batter either seize up or at the very least move fast upon adding the lye solution.....

1) Certain FO's or EO's added to the oils
2) Stearic acid in the form of the pure fatty acid. If not soaped hot enough, it will cause instant soap-on-a-stick.
3) Natural stearic acid present within high-stearic fats such as palm oil, palm kernel oil, and butters such as cocoa butter, mango butter, illipe butter, etc.... If your recipe contains enough of these fats and you soap them too cool below their melting points before the heat reaction from the lye is able to kick the overall warmth of the batter up sufficiently, they will precipitate out of their melted state and cause the batter to thicken up considerably and even solidify.
4) Additives such as clay if used in a high enough amount

Re: castor oil: Although I've heard others report that castor oil can cause things to move fast for them, it's personally never happened to me, and I use castor in higher amounts than many others use. For what it's worth, I use it anywhere from 8% to 23%, depending on my formula.


IrishLass

 

[Dreabkq]

Good to know! Neither recipe included directions for hot process, but I did cook the second one for a while in the crock pot and it seems to be the better batch of the two. I'll Google the hot process zap you mentioned for future batch reference.

This was batch 1, and I followed their instructions

I used the SpruceCrafts recipe for the other. Again following their directions.
https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/shaving-soap-recipe-517138

 

[IrishLass]

Thanks for posting the recipe! The directions for Batch 1 explain everything! The instructions in regards to heating the fats are way too vague.....they don't warn you that the heat should be maintained at a high enough temp in order to keep the stearic acid from precipitating out when other things that might be cooler are added to the pot.

For what it's worth, when I make my shave soap, which includes stearic acid, tallow and butters, I pre-melt my stearic acid in a separate container (because it takes so long to melt) and keep it at 200F in my oven while I'm heating my other fats (which melt more quickly) in my stainless steel, oven-safe soaping pot. When those are melted and up to 200F, I add my hot stearic to them, and then I follow that with the room temp lyes while my pot is still on the burner (on low). Sometimes the batter rices a little upon adding the room temp lyes, which is just the stearic briefly coming out of suspension because of having added something cooler, but it smooths right back out very shortly if I keep my pot on the heat and stir with a whisk.

Once everything is smooth and beginning to thicken to a somewhat pudding-like consistency, I take it off the burner and stick my pot (covered) in the oven set @ 200F and let it cook to zaplessness, which takes about 1 hour, roughly. Then I scent and pour into my mold.


IrishLass

 

[Dreabkq]

IrishLass

Here I was worried that combining everything at 125 was too high! (Most recipies I've used from books say 110 to 120)
So with these recipies, I could heat to closer to 200 degrees then before combining or just the steric at 200 and the other oils slightly cooler? I actually warmed the 2and batch in the crock pot and it seemed to do better.

 

[Bladesmith]

Also, just thought I'd mention from my personal experience playing around with shave soaps... the first recipe you posted on the paper looks like it would make a really nice shave soap.

That second recipe, not so much.

You can be the judge though! I cook all my soaps, shave soap included, around 200F.

 

[Dreabkq]

You can be the judge though! I cook all my soaps, shave soap included, around 200F.

Cook to trace or cook beyond the thickening? And if you cook for a while after blending, about how long? I know each recipe is different, but in general with shave soap? Or at least a range?

And thanks for the advice on the recipies. I'm building a binder of recipies to play with. The calendula soap did great, shave soap not as much...

Also, is this something that I could rebatch since I didnt cook either one hot enough? They're both squishy still like drying out playdough

 

[DeeAnna]

"...Cook to trace or cook beyond the thickening? ..."

With that much stearic acid, thickening is basically trace. Read IL's last paragraph more closely -- she says she cooks in the oven for about 1 hour.

"...this something that I could rebatch since I didnt cook either one hot enough? ...

You don't have to cook the soap at that temp for 1 hour to get good soap. It only has to be heated long enough to melt the stearic and get the soap to trace. If you want to cook longer as IL does, you can. There's nothing wrong with that. Or you can cover the pot and let it saponify as it cools down. Either way works.

"...They're both squishy still like drying out playdough ..."

A soap made with KOH is going to be squishy like this. That is the nature of KOH soap. It will never be hard like NaOH soap.

 

[Dreabkq]

Thanks everyone! I'm new to KoH this year and most recipies dont give a "for dummies" notes like the squishy factor. I appreciate the feedback!

 

[Bladesmith]

Thanks everyone! I'm new to KoH this year and most recipies dont give a "for dummies" notes like the squishy factor. I appreciate the feedback!

Just to double-check... the sprucecrafts recipe is actually referring to NaOH. So if you used KOH in the amount listed for that one, it would not be enough lye to saponify your oils.

 

[Dreabkq]

Just to double-check... the sprucecrafts recipe is actually referring to NaOH. So if you used KOH in the amount listed for that one, it would not be enough lye to saponify your oils.

I followed each recipe as written.

 

[Bladesmith]

Well, the sprucecrafts recipe did not specify which lye to use. It assumed you would use NaOH. That's why I was asking.

 

[Dreabkq]

Well, the sprucecrafts recipe did not specify which lye to use. It assumed you would use NaOH. That's why I was asking.

Um, I think I used sodium because her recipies didnt specify and every other recipe I have very specifically says potassium for that one...I think. And the only recipe I have that is potassium only was liquid castile soap.

 

[earlene]

That is an example of why using a lye/soap calculators is recommended for all recipes. Typos do occur, but I would look at a published soap formula that does not indicate which lye to use as a major error of publication!