Salt and Hardness

[Dean]

Ive been experimenting with salt for hardness in its diff forms lately...sea salt, SL and @Zany_in_CO faux seawater...with zeawater having the best results and SL the worse when unmolding. Considering that I don’t use OO which is reported to produce a hard bar by itslef, do u think if I drop my hardening oil (SW) in 1/2 so that the hardness prop is in the very low end of the calc range, that salt...or zeawater can make the bar hard enough to not bend when it wears very thin?

 

[Lin19687]

There was a topic on worn thin bars and hardness not that long ago.
basically when a bar gets thin at the end it will bend, always.

You might want to search that and also Salt/sugar additives. Lots of posts on them both.
Also, like always, you need to post the full recipe for anyone to know if the recipe is softer or harder.

 

[shunt2011]

I think I'm confused as even store purchased soap will bend when it gets thin. Mind you, it's been quite some time since I've used it but I remember it bending when thin or breaking in pieces. My handmade soap generally gets pretty thing before bending or breaking. Like almost gone.

 

[SaltedFig]

Ive been experimenting with salt for hardness in its diff forms lately...sea salt, SL and @Zany_in_CO faux seawater...with zeawater having the best results and SL the worse when unmolding. Considering that I don’t use OO which is reported to produce a hard bar by itslef, do u think if I drop my hardening oil (SW) in 1/2 so that the hardness prop is in the very low end of the calc range, that salt...or zeawater can make the bar hard enough to not bend when it wears very thin?

Dean, another one you might like to add to your salty arsenal .... soleseife soap (simply put, this is a soap made with a salt brine, instead of water, to make the lye solution).

At it's core, it is very simple - dissolve as much salt as you can in some distilled water (this might take a while - it makes for a quicker soaping day if you make the salt solution on the day before soaping), and then use the water to make your lye solution. There may be a tiny bit of cloudiness - you can either include that or filter it out (if there is any, it is a slight bit of excess salt that is dropping out of solution). If you want to measure, use salt at 25% of the weight of water (this is close to the saturation point).

Soleseife soaps can be quite hard and smooth.

 

[Dawni]

Dean, another one you might like to add to your salty arsenal .... soleseife soap (simply put, this is a soap made with a salt brine, instead of water, to make the lye solution).

At it's core, it is very simple - dissolve as much salt as you can in some distilled water (this might take a while - it makes for a quicker soaping day if you make the salt solution on the day before soaping), and then use the water to make your lye solution. There may be a tiny bit of cloudiness - you can either include that or filter it out (if there is any, it is a slight bit of excess salt that is dropping out of solution). If you want to measure, use salt at 25% of the weight of water (this is close to the saturation point).

Soleseife soaps can be quite hard and smooth.

I love soleseifes! It's about the only CP I make. They're harder and smoother than the few other CPs I tried too.

The only thing is the long cure so I've had to hide my soaps from myself. But, I couldn't resist and tried the very first one I ever made at 4mos and it was already lovely. Imagine after a longer cure.

Oh one more thing. I had issues with micas becoming too light, even underneath the ash, the one time I tried them in a soleseife. The rest used natural colorants. Charcoal, moringa, turmeric and hendigo to be exact. No fading. One out of three had no ash. I remember making a note to check why that is so but I have a feeling it's coz I used a lil bit of vinegar in that one.

Vinegar makes hard bars as well. Have you looked into that?

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Also, like always, you need to post the full recipe for anyone to know if the recipe is softer or harder.

I agree. If you could take a screenshot of SoapCalc (or whatever calc) we could get the full picture to be able to give better feedback.

BTW, my tiny (10 gram/0.35 oz) leftover bar of No Slime Castile has kept its shape to the end -- no bending at all. Whether that's due to the formula or that it was allowed to dry between daily use, I can't say ... but it sure is cute.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Dean, another one you might like to add to your salty arsenal .... soleseife soap (simply put, this is a soap made with a salt brine, instead of water, to make the lye solution).

At it's core, it is very simple - dissolve as much salt as you can in some distilled water (this might take a while - it makes for a quicker soaping day if you make the salt solution on the day before soaping), and then use the water to make your lye solution. There may be a tiny bit of cloudiness - you can either include that or filter it out (if there is any, it is a slight bit of excess salt that is dropping out of solution). If you want to measure, use salt at 25% of the weight of water (this is close to the saturation point).

Soleseife soaps can be quite hard and smooth.

LOL - 'Salty Arsenal'.

@Dawni - I was concerned that soleseife might be prone to truck loads of soda ash? It's what put me off making it.

 

[Lin19687]

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/saturated-and-hardness.71142/#post-714311

I think this is your post ?

 

[Dawni]

LOL - 'Salty Arsenal'.

@Dawni - I was concerned that soleseife might be prone to truck loads of soda ash? It's what put me off making it.

We need our more experienced folks to lend their knowledge but I noted down that the one with no ash used less water, and also a little vinegar. My notes said 1.7:1. It's the one with the silicon lace and hendigo for color.

The previous blue, same recipe but more water and no vinegar had very thick ash, like really thick that spraying with alcohol didn't work. The very first mini soleseifes I made about 5mos ago had ash but less. Here the alcohol worked. The only difference is one used micas and the other used natural colorants. Water was 2:1 for these.

Edit: added links

 

[Dean]

I agree. If you could take a screenshot of SoapCalc (or whatever calc) we could get the full picture be able to give better feedback.

Here the recipie that Im considering. When Ive gone this low on the SW b4 it would bend much sooner/thicker than with higher SW bars. Wondering if the salt or zeawater would make a diff.

I’m driving myself nuts trying to decide if I want to experiment again when I’ve got a great recipie already. Guess the only way to kno is try it out and play the waiting game...

Vinegar makes hard bars as well. Have you looked into that?

I have not tried vinegar yet cuz my water replacements are aloe and carrot juice for lather and color.

 

[Lin19687]

It's 65% almond oil..... I don't know about Wax in a soap but it is going to be a softer bar. I don't like wax in a soap but that's my opinion
at 32 for hardness I am not sure what you are expecting from this. I would think it would need a YEAR cure.

I don't think there is any "additive" that will harden this like you want.

 

[amd]

Sometimes my bars will bend when they get thin, sometimes they don't. The only thing I can pin down is how I'm using them - some bars I like to lather up on my hands, some I like to lather up on my body. It seems like the bars that I use directly on my body will start to bend as they get thinner - I'm assuming this is reshaping to fit my hand and body curves (ain't none of me flat no more, lol). Bars that I lather on my hands seem to stay flat. This seems to be pretty universal for all the other soapers I have tried as well as my own. Although I can't really tell you what criteria I use to determine how I use that soap, I did notice last night that one bar I lathered on my hands, and the other bar I used on my body, but I have no idea why. It's totally subconscious. Maybe it's based on first use lather - good lather soaps go direct and soaps that need some encouragement go in the hands? Hmmm... the soap I used in my hands was a castile which is tricky to lather...

The soap drying between uses could also be contributing to the bending you're experiencing - the edges dry faster than the middle so they try to curl up (or warp/bend). Easier for the soap to do when it's thinner, especially when it's likely that the outer edges are thinner than the middle, further contributing to the edges drying faster and warping.

I don't think there is a recipe that will "fix" this, although you might find something that is less noticeable.

 

[dibbles]

@Dean if you come up with a recipe that you love, but when the soap bends when it gets too thin why not just stick the little piece to a new bar and use it up that way? Personally, I don’t really have a problem tossing a little sliver so I’m trying to understand. Unless your soap is still pretty big when it starts to bend.

 

[Dean]

@Dean if you come up with a recipe that you love, but when the soap bends when it gets too thin why not just stick the little piece to a new bar and use it up that way? Personally, I don’t really have a problem tossing a little sliver so I’m trying to understand. Unless your soap is still pretty big when it starts to bend.

I do stick it to another bar...a trick I learned here.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I would take the soy wax down to 10% (personal preference); for hardness & lather take the coconut oil up 10%. An iodine value of 70 is at the recommended max. I like to aim at 50 or so for hardness. Upping the coconut oil should help with that. With an INS of 132, you may have to wait a few days before it's ready to unmold; another day to cut; and likely more than 6 weeks to cure (not sure). Other than that, it looks lovely.

ETA: Almost forgot... with the oils you have, I think the "zeawater" LOL would do nicely.

 

[earlene]

I really do believe that how bendy a soap becomes when thin is entirely dependant on certain factors like the ingredients in the soap and how wet the soap is while trying to bend it. Not all soap I have used or made is bendy when worn down to a thin sliver. Some bends more easily than others, while some seem impervious to bending. Anyway that is my experience with both store-bought and my own hand-crafted soaps. But of course another factor is environmental. For the most part, my soap is generally not exposed to high humidity at home. But, I have noticed soap in an non-air-conditioned lodging in Hawaii, tends to stay wet longer due to the very high humidity. So you may also need look at your relative humidity.

But I have never paid close enough attention to what the actual factors are when the sliver does not bend. Probably because I didn't care enough to do any follow up research. Which is why I probably can't answer your question, Dean. But since it does matter to you, I would suggest that you look at all factors involved, including the actual formulas of the soaps in question, as well as how wet or dry the soap is when it is bending or not bending, depending on which test you are doing. And your humidity, if it is a factor.

 

[Dean]

I would take the soy wax down to 10% (personal preference); for hardness & lather take the coconut oil up 10%. An iodine value of 70 is at the recommended max. I like to aim at 50 or so for hardness. Upping the coconut oil should help with that. With an INS of 132, you may have to wait a few days before it's ready to unmold; another day to cut; and likely more than 6 weeks to cure (not sure). Other than that, it looks lovely.

ETA: Almost forgot... with the oils you have, I think the "zeawater" LOL would do nicely.

Thanks Zany.

I haven’t looked at INS and Iodine in a long time. I had to look them up again see what they mean. I’ll consider them from now on. My stnd recipe has them in the normal range. Iodine is 50 and INS is 155. I tweaked it slightly about 6 weeks ago. The bar went from really good to fantastic. I even used it on my face which I haven’t done in a long time. However, its slightly softer than b4 (bendier...just made that word up). I think, Ill go with my stnd recipe with zeawater and see how the zeawater affects “the bends”. In fact, I’m going to masterbatch zeawater today...a first!

 

[Zany_in_CO]

For what it's worth, and IME (in my experience), the best "facial bars" tend to be in that 135-145 INS range. Be patient, tho, and take good notes during the cure time so you have an idea of what to expect the next time.

BTW, I got a pad of "Cure Cards" as a Gift with Purchase from www.TheSage.com. A double row of 2 vertical columns in each row; one column for the date; one column for the weight. Enough for 14 entries. I keep them with the soaps during the cure. I don't always use them tho... especially the soaps for personal use. tsk, tsk,

ETA: Here's a pic:

 

[Dean]

Dean, another one you might like to add to your salty arsenal .... soleseife soap (simply put, this is a soap made with a salt brine, instead of water, to make the lye solution).

At it's core, it is very simple - dissolve as much salt as you can in some distilled water (this might take a while - it makes for a quicker soaping day if you make the salt solution on the day before soaping), and then use the water to make your lye solution. There may be a tiny bit of cloudiness - you can either include that or filter it out (if there is any, it is a slight bit of excess salt that is dropping out of solution). If you want to measure, use salt at 25% of the weight of water (this is close to the saturation point).

Soleseife soaps can be quite hard and smooth.

Thx @SaltedFig. Will this much salt affect lather?

 

[SaltedFig]

It does, in that the lather is creamy, rather than having large fluffy bubbles.

I tend to use an ordinary recipe for my soleseife (not a high coconut one) and I still get a creamy lather after the cure.
One batch from a couple of years ago I used clays - that was a bit much and the lather on those is still there, but noticeably reduced.

So it does affect lather (it's not going to be high sudsing) but they'll still bubble, and if you are using a lot of coconut, they'll bubble better than a salt bar IMHO.