Runny peanut butter soap, any guesses as to what may have happened?

[TheStrand]

Hi, I've been making soap for nearly a year, sarcasm: So super experienced almost expert! :sarcasm mostly for personal use but experimenting for possible craft product sales. I've been trying many different things to try to make a shower type body wash that is viscous enough to not just rinse through your fingers before lathering and washing. Until now I've been using a foam dispenser for liquid soaps that works great, but I'm just stubborn and insist on finding the solution beyond salting castile soap.

Part of the problem is I am trying to make it with Hemp seed oil and Coconut oil (fractionated) as much as possible, since olive oil "Castile" soap isn't very bubbly or cleansing...

Using Glycerin instead of water makes a more viscous soap, so I've come to try to make a Hemp/coconut oil liquid soap with glycerin lye mixture...

Here's the recipe I've attempted this morning for small experimental batch:
250g Hempseed oil
200g Coconut oil (fractionated)
246g Glycerin
123g KOH

Followed the usual process:
Heat oil mixture in small crock
Heat Glycerin to 200 degrees C
Mix KOH with Glycerin
Stir Lye with heated oils (Though maybe not heated enough)
Stick blend mixture

I wound up burning out a stick blender on this batch... (second time I've done that so I'm switching to a drill with paint mixer)

*(interesting side note: I've gone through two stick blenders and TWO crockpots that cracked on me... Expensive hobby without even looking at the ingredients so far)

The mix never got past smooth... And now it sits at a runny peanut butter consistency after almost 5 hours of intermittent mixing and cooking.

Glycerin mixes usually go to paste FAST!

 

[ResolvableOwl]

I'll admit it. I read “peanut butter” but I got clickbaited

A few remarks:

• How would you compare the bubbliness of fractionated coconut oil (MCT oil) to that of regular coconut oil? To the best of my knowledge, it isn't settled yet if MCT fatty acids (capric acid/caprylic acid) contribute to good lather at all, and if they are irritant/sensitising to skin to a higher or lower degree than lauric soaps (major component in regular coconut oil). Usually, the crazy price of MCT oil is prohobitive for usage as a major soaping oil anyway.
• Where did you get a reliable saponification value for your MCT oil from?
• Does the soap paste pass the zap test and the clarity test?
• You've said “not heated enough”. Actually, heating isn't required at all for LS. CPLS (Cold-process liquid soap) is a viable method that replaces any heating with waiting time.
• You get decent foam out of a foamer with a glycerol-rich LS? I've made LS with a lot of additional glycerol before, but I noticed that at/above some 50% of oil weight, glycerol deteriorated the foam (less foam, less dense and shorter-lasting/quicker decay). Beyond that, I'm just curious why you aim for a thick consistency for foamer bottles. That appears kind of pointless to me?
• Do you have a specific question regarding the recipe, this batch in particular, or the process as a whole?

 

[TheStrand]

Sorry, didn't mean to clickbait anyone.

• I can't make a good comparison between fractionated and regular coconut oil at this point, but my LS using fractionated coconut oil have been adequately bubbly, and the only complaint I've heard is that some people felt it required more rinsing than other soaps. That may be due to the Hempseed oil though, which is in there to help counter the harsh cleansing with some conditioning.
• I used several calculators and wound up going with the soapmakingfriend.com for this specific experiment, but I usually use soapcalc.net
• Just went back to stir it up after 5 hours and there's a dark clear liquid under the pasty top now, so I haven't been brave enough to touch any of it to my mouth since it looks nothing like what I expected. I'm going to leave it and stir it until it has a consistent unseparated consistency and then I'll test it.
• Thanks for the heat tip! I didn't know that, I'll have to look into CPLS as a possible path going forward if I keep cracking crock pots.
• My other soaps work great out of the foamer bottles and I'm not looking to make those LS more viscous. I'm trying to make a liquid shower soap that doesn't need a foamer bottle and doesn't disappear through your fingers before you can lather it up. Basically I'm trying to make soap shower gel (But not a gel, just thick enough to be a bit like it), I might just have to do a hybrid Lye and make more of a cream that can be squeezed out into your hand in the shower? Still experimenting on a solution that fits the "shower gel body wash" category and keeping as close to a natural "soap" as possible.
• I guess, if I had one question, it would be.... "how to thicken a LS based on Hempseed Oil and fractionated Coconut Oil?". Salting it did NOT do what I've seen it do with actual (Olive Oil) Castile soap, and I understand that's due to the types of fats in use, so is there another way to thicken this TYPE of a recipe? I've even made a huge mess trying to use Xanthan Gum, that was a total failure...

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Lual-lye LS is basically the same as salting/salt curve thickening (adding sodium), just that you have to know in advance how much sodium you need to reach the desired viscosity.

Regarding thickening: of tier-1 soaping oils, coconut is the worst already wrt LS consistency, and fractionated coconut/MCT probably even worse. So you're right to focus on the long-chain oils (hemp). Unfortunately, hemp oil is quite low in oleic acid, thus you'll still need quite some concentration of it to get a syrupy consistency. I'm currently at a lenghty experiment to get a more reliable/quantitative understanding of which FAs contribute in which way to LS consistency, and hemp oil, being most similar to HL sunflower and flaxseed, probably is a fabulous ingredient for LS, but isn't the greatest to thicken it up.

If I had to modify your recipe, I'd add some HO safflower/sunflower, canola, or peanut (!) oil – not primarily to cut down cost a bit, but to bring some oleic acid that eases the adjustment of consistency at a sensible concentration.

Do you plan to add countermeasures against rancidity (citrate, ROE, etc.)?

Sorry, didn't mean to clickbait anyone.

That's a 100% “me” issue, you are innocent

 

[Catscankim]

I'll admit it. I read “peanut butter” but I got clickbaited

I have nothing useful to contribute because I have never made LS. But I need to admit, That I saw the title and was like "ok, need to get a beer to read this one" LOL

 

[TheStrand]

Lual-lye LS is basically the same as salting/salt curve thickening (adding sodium), just that you have to know in advance how much sodium you need to reach the desired viscosity.

Regarding thickening: of tier-1 soaping oils, coconut is the worst already wrt LS consistency, and fractionated coconut/MCT probably even worse. So you're right to focus on the long-chain oils (hemp). Unfortunately, hemp oil is quite low in oleic acid, thus you'll still need quite some concentration of it to get a syrupy consistency. I'm currently at a lenghty experiment to get a more reliable/quantitative understanding of which FAs contribute in which way to LS consistency, and hemp oil, being most similar to HL sunflower and flaxseed, probably is a fabulous ingredient for LS, but isn't the greatest to thicken it up.

If I had to modify your recipe, I'd add some HO safflower/sunflower, canola, or peanut (!) oil – not primarily to cut down cost a bit, but to bring some oleic acid that eases the adjustment of consistency at a sensible concentration.

Do you plan to add countermeasures against rancidity (citrate, ROE, etc.)?


That's a 100% “me” issue, you are innocent

Oh!!! That should've been obvious, (I feel stupid now, not putting one and one together to equal two) but thanks for illustrating exactly what using dual lye mixtures really is. Now I'm not so afraid of playing with that mixture.

And thanks for pointing out that oleic acid (and some examples of suitable oils) will go towards my solution. I will look at making changes in my experimentation in that direction.

If I wind up with a good product, I'll look at the next step of increasing shelf life as you suggest.

Thanks again so much for your very helpful advice!

 

[Tara_H]

I have nothing useful to contribute because I have never made LS. But I need to admit, That I saw the title and was like "ok, need to get a beer to read this one" LOL

I have made LS but the owl already covered anything I might say and more...
And yeah, I too, opened the thread like

 

[ResolvableOwl]

 

[TheStrand]

View attachment 61111

LOL, well done!

I don't like leaving a thread without following up with results, so here's what happened after letting it sit overnight.

It passes the zap test, and sits at 9.7ph

Now, I'm going to try to dilute part of it in glycerin 1:1 and then 1:2 and see what kind of viscosity I get.
I'll try small portions diluted in small amounts of water to compare viscosity and effectiveness and if anyone would like to hear how these turn out, I'll come back and add another update. Otherwise, thanks again for your very helpful feedback and a good laugh!

 

[TheStrand]

Lual-lye LS is basically the same as salting/salt curve thickening (adding sodium), just that you have to know in advance how much sodium you need to reach the desired viscosity.

Regarding thickening: of tier-1 soaping oils, coconut is the worst already wrt LS consistency, and fractionated coconut/MCT probably even worse. So you're right to focus on the long-chain oils (hemp). Unfortunately, hemp oil is quite low in oleic acid, thus you'll still need quite some concentration of it to get a syrupy consistency. I'm currently at a lenghty experiment to get a more reliable/quantitative understanding of which FAs contribute in which way to LS consistency, and hemp oil, being most similar to HL sunflower and flaxseed, probably is a fabulous ingredient for LS, but isn't the greatest to thicken it up.

If I had to modify your recipe, I'd add some HO safflower/sunflower, canola, or peanut (!) oil – not primarily to cut down cost a bit, but to bring some oleic acid that eases the adjustment of consistency at a sensible concentration.

Do you plan to add countermeasures against rancidity (citrate, ROE, etc.)?


That's a 100% “me” issue, you are innocent

Started looking into my next round of experiments and found this about ROE from my supplier:

"When using, mix well with the other product. It will not be effective when used in products with a pH value higher than 8.5 "

Is it of any use adding it to the soap then? None of my soaps are below a pH of 9

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Fair point. In my personal experience, it does help to prevent ra ncidity, judging from the relative rarity of DOS I get since using ROE, compared to my unbroken carelessness with soaps high in PUFAs.

Several things to consider wrt the warning you quoted:

• All ROE is not created equal. It might well be that your product is indeed less effective at high pH than others. (In addition, my “ROE” has also some tocopherol/vitamin E added, thus I can't even distinguish between rancidity delayed by rosemary, added vitamin E, and the vitamin E naturally present in some vegetable oils).
• It sounds like your ROE instructions are targeted on formulations of chemically mostly unaltered oils (lotions, massage oil, lipsticks…). Soap might be a (mild form of) off-label use to use it for soap – the manufacturer doesn't want to cover responsibility for conditions they didn't design the product for. It might or might not be fine.
• pH value in soap is not well-defined. A soap does not “have a pH value” that has anything to do with the pH scale we're used to (that is based on dilute aqueous solutions – but soap, even ready-to-use LS, is not a dilute aqueous solution, but a complicated two-phase system with a high ionic strength and a lot of interface chemistry stuff going on)

All in all, this annotation wraps up to a very decided “It Depends™”. Given you already have it, use it. It won't hurt. And enough other things to do wrong with soapmaking that ROE used outside specification is not the most worrisome thing to make oneself guilty at.
If you're fancy, split a batch and add ROE to one, then forget about it for a few months, and compare if they differ in any meaningful way.

 

[earlene]

Started looking into my next round of experiments and found this about ROE from my supplier:

"When using, mix well with the other product. It will not be effective when used in products with a pH value higher than 8.5 "

Is it of any use adding it to the soap then? None of my soaps are below a pH of 9

I refer you to this well documented research done by Dr. Kevin Dunn, chemistry professor: http://cavemanchemistry.com/DreadedOrangeSpot-Dunn.pdf

 

[TheStrand]

Thank you both, one question of clarification then, adding the ROE at what point in the process? Adding it to the oil mix makes sense but then does the heat damage it? Or would you add it at trace when it's cooled down like with fragrance and such?

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Some add it to the oils as soon as they arrive. Rancidity doesn't start with soapmaking, but actually already at harvest. The longer the oils have contact to ROE, the better.

Others add ROE until after gel phase (HP cooking).

Point is, even though you use little ROE, it still comes dispersed in a carrier oil. This oil will float around in the diluted soap, and add to your very limited budget of oils that LS can keep dissolved without sedimentation. I have no experience with rancid LS, so I can only guess that the best time is adding it shortly before the end of the cooking (when the periodic clarity test is no more than slightly turbid).

 

[earlene]

Whenever I open a new bottle of liquid oil, I add the appropriate amount of ROE to the bottle & write on the label with a Sharpie the date ROE was added. When I make soap using hard oils that I have never melted beforehand, I will add Roe at that time, based on the weight of the hard oils. But I don't always remember to add the ROE later, but I am getting better at that.

I add EDTA when I make the soap, thus getting the ROE+EDTA benefit in my soap. Others use ROE+Citric Acid, etc.

PS. Just to clarify not all ROE is sold in a carrier oil, and not everyone later dilutes their ROE in a carrier oil for ease of use, but some do.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Part of the problem is I am trying to make it with Hemp seed oil and Coconut oil (fractionated)

Using FCO is a huge mistake. Solid Coconut Oil 76* is the go-to oil for viscosity in LS. Please read:

WHAT TO EXPECT FROM VARIOUS OILS IN LS

Based on my experience, FCO aka CCT aka MCT oils are nice at SF 5% added to hard bars at the end of the cook (HP) or after trace (CP). But that's it! It doesn't even come close to the 76° at 100% in terms of cleansing and lather. My laundry soap is 100% coconut oil 76°. I'm sorry you didn't know that before trying to make LS.

Followed the usual process:

LOL There are about as many ways to make LS as there are LS'ers. It will help us to help you if you can be specific about your process or provide a link to your recipe.

250g Hempseed oil
200g Coconut oil (fractionated)
246g Glycerin
123g KOH

I know I'm a late to the party but I must say, this recipe needs help with the basics. In the future, go to the Recipe Feedback Forum. Include a screenshot of your SoapCalc or other Lye Calc recipe, any & all additives and process.

*(interesting side note: I've gone through two stick blenders and TWO crockpots that cracked on me... Expensive hobby without even looking at the ingredients so far)

YIKES! I've been making soap and LS since 2004 and this is the first time anyone has mentioned having those issues. That should never happen. I'm wonder where you learned to make soap??? Here's a link where you can learn the basics of LS.

Alaiyna B's Blogspot - LS Tutorials

For hard bars, there's good info in the Beginner's Forum

It passes the zap test, and sits at 9.7ph

Kudos to @ResolvableOwl for helping you through it.

adding the ROE at what point in the process?

ROE is added to the oils before adding the lye solution. Use rate is according to the suppiers recommendations. There's good information in this thread:

ROE USE

 

[TheStrand]

Thanks for the pointers Zany, I will definitely compare the 76° coconut oil in an upcoming batch. Ultimately the "peanut butter experiment" led me to find that the use of HEC is the simplest and best solution to my shower gel desired consistency. Your mention of improved lather does intrigue me though, so I'll be giving 76° coconut oil it's chance soon. Thanks again!