Replacing water with vinegar

[Kcryss]

I agree with @Mobjack Bay -- I suspect using both citric acid and vinegar can indeed cause bar soap to be softer. I don't know what people are doing when they use both, but if the "usual" dosage is used for each acid and they're combined together in one soap, that salt load may be too much of a good thing.

It may be (just a guess -- I don't have proof of this) that the total combined salt load should be kept below a certain amount to get the most benefits and the fewest disadvantages.

I wonder if too much salt is causing the long cook times?

Prior to getting the Sodium Gluconate, I was using CA/Vinegar. I never used the full amount of vinegar, never more than 150g in a batch of 900g of oils. However, I was still having trouble with long cook times.

When I used SG/water only, the batch cooked in 14 minutes.

Tonight, my trial batch with making adjustments for the CA and vinegar, is back to the long cook times.

However, while stirring/cooking/stirring/cooking I realized that maybe, to your point, the salt is the problem. I have a water softener and even though I don't use tap water straight from the faucet, I am using filtered water that came from the tap.

Is it possible that there is still salt getting through the filter and that combined with ca/vinegar and now SG that the cause is too much salt? Maybe I should just stop trying to use vinegar and try it with distilled water, ca/sg.

 

[RDak]

A bit off topic......

Will an equal amount of vinegar add the same basic benefits to the soap as an equal amount of sodium lactate would (e.g., hardening up the soap more quickly for unmolding purposes)?

 

[DeeAnna]

"...Is it possible that there is still salt getting through the filter and that combined with ca/vinegar and now SG that the cause is too much salt?..."

Softened water contains maybe 10-15 milligrams of sodium per 8 ounces (~250 grams) of water based on a quick Google search. That's around 0.006% by weight.

I don't want to get into calculating the salt load from softened water, vinegar, and citric acid this morning, so I'll just ask you to think about this --

The 0.006% sodium in softened water is minuscule. You can't even taste the sodium in softened water. This amount is way, WAY less compared with vinegar at 5% acetic acid or however much citric acid you're using when the CA is dissolved in water.

Focus on the salt load from your additives. That's where your problems are coming from.

 

[Kcryss]

Focus on the salt load from your additives. That's where your problems are coming from.

Thanks DeeAnna. Makes sense. I will skip the vinegar on the next batch and cross my fingers

 

[Kcryss]

A bit off topic......

Will an equal amount of vinegar add the same basic benefits to the soap as an equal amount of sodium lactate would (e.g., hardening up the soap more quickly for unmolding purposes)?

I don't know if an equal amount will do the same as sodium lactate but here is additional info on using vinegar in soap: https://classicbells.com/soap/aceticAcid.asp

 

[cmzaha]

May I ask why you are determined to use CA? I use Vinegar and SG in all batches. I do split my SG with my Tetrasodium EDTA, but that is only because I am using up 5 lbs of Tetrasodium EDTA. I have used SG up to 1% and it works better than CA ever work as a chelator for me or for my daughter who has extremely hard well water with high arsenic levels. (no they do not drink the water). I do find many products sold in her area contain both Tetrasodium EDTA and SG. I always hated the way CA would crystalize on the outside of my soap when I added enough CA to actually help as a chelator.

To answer the above question, post #82, I find it takes at least a 50% water replacement with vinegar to notice a hardness in soap and quick un-molding.

 

[Kcryss]

May I ask why you are determined to use CA? I use Vinegar and SG in all batches. I do split my SG with my Tetrasodium EDTA, but that is only because I am using up 5 lbs of Tetrasodium EDTA. I have used SG up to 1% and it works better than CA ever work as a chelator for me or for my daughter who has extremely hard well water with high arsenic levels. (no they do not drink the water). I do find many products sold in her area contain both Tetrasodium EDTA and SG. I always hated the way CA would crystalize on the outside of my soap when I added enough CA to actually help as a chelator.

To answer the above question, post #82, I find it takes at least a 50% water replacement with vinegar to notice a hardness in soap and quick un-molding.

To be honest I was hoping it helped with the hard water issues, but based on what you're saying with the SG, maybe I really don't need it. I've read several threads/blogs where people are still using both, but maybe that really is overkill.

Also, I do HP, so I really don't have unmolding issues or issues with hardness to be honest. So figured getting rid of the vinegar as a first step was the best option.

To your point though if SG at 1% works better than CA, I could go back to just the SG and add my aloe back in since I'm really missing that one.

As an experienced soaper, do you think both SG and CA are overkill or is it potentially upping the chelating factor?

 

[cmzaha]

I really do not think both are necessary and as I mentioned I really do not like using CA. It is really trial and error. When my Tetrasodium EDTA is gone I will go with SG at 1% instead of EDTA and SG at 0.5% each. This is based on my total batch weight not ppo.

 

[Kcryss]

I really do not think both are necessary and as I mentioned I really do not like using CA. It is really trial and error. When my Tetrasodium EDTA is gone I will go with SG at 1% instead of EDTA and SG at 0.5% each. This is based on my total batch weight not ppo.

I will give a try. Thanks

 

[RDak]

I don't know if an equal amount will do the same as sodium lactate but here is additional info on using vinegar in soap: https://classicbells.com/soap/aceticAcid.asp

Thank you!

 

[Pepsi Girl]

I superfat at 2% other than soleseif and salt bars..

Thank you!

 

[RDak]

Jesus you guys and gals know your stuff!!

Just tried some vinegar (only 56 grams in a batch that called for 1,023 grams of liquid), added the 2 extra grams of lye as required and even that little bit hardened up the soap decently after 24 hours. (That is all I wanted it to do so hopefully I could use that instead of sodium lactate.) Well, now I can thanks to all of you.

Now if it helps with lather it is a total win!

You guys and gals are a wealth of info and I want to thank all of you because I never used vinegar in making soap. Been making soap for a long time but I just had never heard of using some vinegar. Thanks again!

 

[ps1cute]

I make most of my soaps with vinegar now using 50-100% vinegar. I multiply my vinegar amount by 0.0357 to get the additional amount of lye I need to compensate for the vinegar. I love the hardness and the way the soap lathers with vinegar, I also use a low superfat of 2%.

ETA: I use distilled vinegar not apple cider vinegar

Hey there. I know this is an old post and a commonly asked question but I am still confused. For example, If I'm doing 50% lye of the water solution, which is 4.62 and the other water portion is 4.62. The lye amt is 3.94. do I multiply 0.0357 × 4.62=.165 Then add that to 4.62 to 3.94 get total lye of 4.11. Is this correct?

 

[cmzaha]

Hey there. I know this is an old post and a commonly asked question but I am still confused. For example, If I'm doing 50% lye of the water solution, which is 4.62 and the other water portion is 4.62. The lye amt is 3.94. do I multiply 0.0357 × 4.62=.165 Then add that to 4.62 to 3.94 get total lye of 4.11. Is this correct?

Then add that to 4.62 to 3.94 This is a little confusing to me. You add the .16+3.94 (lye)= 4.1 oz total lye necessary if using 4.62 oz vinegar. Always multiply your vinegar use by 0.0357 to get your extra lye requirement.

Once again I want to mention SMF is Not deducting the Vinegar from the liquid requirement when checking the water discount box after adding vinegar in the additives section, so please all be careful if you use this function. You can very well end up with to much water if you are not using 100% vinegar as water replacement. That is somewhat hard to do because SMF always ups the water when it adds in the small amount of extra lye which is something I do not do. There is already plenty of liquid to add in the small bit of extra lye, no need to up the water. I simply stay away from that function and do my own math. I tried a new recipe today, well somewhat new to see if the function is working and no it is not. It does figure the extra lye requirement properly.

 

[ps1cute]

Then add that to 4.62 to 3.94 This is a little confusing to me. You add the .16+3.94 (lye)= 4.1 oz total lye necessary if using 4.62 oz vinegar. Always multiply your vinegar use by 0.0357 to get your extra lye requirement.

Once again I want to mention SMF is Not deducting the Vinegar from the liquid requirement when checking the water discount box after adding vinegar in the additives section, so please all be careful if you use this function. You can very well end up with to much water if you are not using 100% vinegar as water replacement. That is somewhat hard to do because SMF always ups the water when it adds in the small amount of extra lye which is something I do not do. There is already plenty of liquid to add in the small bit of extra lye, no need to up the water. I simply stay away from that function and do my own math. I tried a new recipe today, well somewhat new to see if the function is working and no it is not. It does figure the extra lye requirement properly.

I think I've confused myself... LOL where'd you get the. 16 from? Im sure I didn't explain it correctly. My total water for the recipe is 9.24oz. I was gonna do half acv. So that's where I got the 4.62 from.

 

[cmzaha]

I think I've confused myself... LOL where'd you get the. 16 from? Im sure I didn't explain it correctly. My total water for the recipe is 9.24oz. I was gonna do half acv. So that's where I got the 4.62 from.

The 0.16 oz is from multiplying the 4.62 vinegar by 0.0357 to get the extra required lye needed. 4.62 oz x 0.0357 = 0.164 oz extra lye needed.

 

[David James]

None of the calculators appear to make the use of vinegar 100% predictable. SMF at least adjusts the lye calc, but none of them seem to adjust the soap properties. I really would like to see it at least show me an updated hardness score, but ideally all of the properties. I am sure that bubbly, conditioning, etc. Either go up or down when adding vinegar. If nothing else, all of the other saponifiables are being reduced/diluted.

Maybe the easiest fix would be to add acetic acid to the list of oils, just like stearic. I could calculate 5% (or whatever percentage of acidity) of the vinegar weight and just enter that along with my oils.

 

[cmzaha]

None of the calculators appear to make the use of vinegar 100% predictable. SMF at least adjusts the lye calc, but none of them seem to adjust the soap properties. I really would like to see it at least show me an updated hardness score, but ideally all of the properties. I am sure that bubbly, conditioning, etc. Either go up or down when adding vinegar. If nothing else, all of the other saponifiables are being reduced/diluted.

Maybe the easiest fix would be to add acetic acid to the list of oils, just like stearic. I could calculate 5% (or whatever percentage of acidity) of the vinegar weight and just enter that along with my oils.

I really think that would make things more complicated. Besides the properties are not all that perfect, to begin with. soap with vinegar and you will see what it does or does not do.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...none of them seem to adjust the soap properties..."

That's because the "scores" for hardness and such are calculated ONLY based on the fatty acids in the recipe. Hardness = palmitic + stearic + myristic + lauric acids. What's the fatty acid content in vinegar?

Many other commonly used additives, including table salt, citric acid, sodium lactate, beer, honey and other sugars, various starches, food purees, etc., etc., can and do affect the hardness and other qualities of soap.

These additives often inter-react, sometimes in unpredictable ways. I cannot fathom how someone is supposed to design a calc that can predict the effects of additives, including vinegar. For example, a soap maker in one recent thread was experiencing serious problems and finally traced it back to using both vinegar and citric acid in her soap. How is a calc designer supposed to predict that kind of interaction???

Frankly, we're lucky to have a calc designer who was willing to include the calculations needed so people can include acids like vinegar and citric acid without having to do the math by hand to calculate the extra alkali required for the acid-base neutralization. That's something no other calc (that I know of, anyway) is doing, and I think this is a huge step forward.

I don't believe there is a mathematical model available for calculating the change in hardness due to vinegar. If a model doesn't exist, I can't remotely see why a calc designer needs to be responsible for the research necessary to develop one. If you do know how to calculate the change in hardness due to vinegar, however, be sure and present it to the SMF management.

"...all of the other saponifiables are being reduced/diluted....

The acetic acid in vinegar is an organic acid, but it's not a fatty acid. Only fats and fatty acids saponify.

Vinegar doesn't dilute or reduce the fats in the recipe any more than plain water dilutes or reduces the fats. The weight of pure soap made in any batch of soap is equal to the fat/fatty acid weight plus the lye weight required to saponify the fats and fatty acids. Water-based liquids, including vinegar, are in addition to the pure soap made.

"...Maybe the easiest fix would be to add acetic acid to the list of oils, just like stearic...."

I suppose one could pretend as if vinegar is a fat and put it in the list of fats. Problem is many people will then treat vinegar as if it really is an ingredient that results in soap and make some major mistakes in formulating recipes.

The consumption of NaOH by vinegar is being handled correctly by the SMF calc as it is written. We don't need to pretend as if vinegar is a fat. The essential problem right now is the calc isn't doing the calculations correctly to account for the water in the vinegar.

 

[omniverse99]

The math is actually pretty easy if you have a spreadsheet to do it for you. I'm still using the calculator for the actual lye/liquid, but I write both down before adding CA/vinegar. Then, I add one at a time.
I add the CA, get the grams needed (I use 1.5% ppo). Then I do the math =CA grams*6.24/10. So if I need 13.5 grams of CA, the calculation would be 13.5*6.24/10 = 8.42, then I add the 8.42 to whatever the calculator originally calculated for the lye.
Same with vinegar, although the lye calculation there is fine, so it's just a matter of increasing the original liquid by 5g for the 100g of vinegar (that's all I use for a 900g batch of soap).
For the liquid, I am just going to use the original stated quantity +5g.

I will be trying this out tonight and post the results of the experiment here.
Tonights batch will be = 13.5g CA, 100g vinegar, 9g SG. No other additives before cook. 900g batch and 2% SF after cook.

Hello how did it turn out? How did it feel on the skin?