recipe thought before i go ahead

[tha pint]

Hi folks. Me and the wife have always fancied making our own soaps and after some research we have come up with this recipe.
We decided not to use palm oil for moral reasons and im just wondering what you think i should expect from our recipe. I do understand palm gives a harder bar so is there anything i should change. I also have sensitive skin hence the percentages.


A Solid soap, measured in Ounces with superfat of 5%.

LYE & LIQUID	AMOUNT
Lye (Sodium Hydroxide)	4.55 oz
Percentage of liquid	10.17 oz
Total	14.72 oz

OIL & FATS	AMOUNT	%
Olive Oil - Pure	15.30 oz	45.00%
Castor Oil	1.70 oz	5.00%
Coconut Oil	5.10 oz	15.00%
Rice Bran Oil	6.80 oz	20.00%
Shea Butter	5.10 oz	15.00%
Total	34.00 oz	100.00 %

TOTALS	AMOUNT
Lye & Liquid	14.72 oz
Oils & Fats	34.00 oz
TOTAL BATCH YIELD	48.72 oz

 

[Kcryss]

I'm not familiar with this calculator. Did it provide the fatty acid profiles? That will be more telling (imho) on how it will turn out once finished.

 

[tha pint]

Its the brambleberry lye calculator

 

[ImpKit]

I use a very similar recipe, at least recently. And I enjoy my bars. The shea will give you a very creamy lather in the shower and feels very nice to me; I kind of personally think I won't buy or make soap without a butter any more now that I've been spoiled with it >_>. It is definitely a bit softer than some bars I've bought from professional soap makers. But, to be honest, comparing a bar I bought from one company against a bar of my own... they lasted about the same length of time. Could the longevity I get from my recipe be improved with palm, tallow, a wax, or something else? Absolutely. But it isn't like it melts away in a couple days.

I do not have sensitive or dry skin. I can't say if it will or won't cause issues. And I haven't tested my similar recipe as a hand soap, so I can't say if it would bubble up and lather up fluffier under those conditions. I DO find, personally, that lather is definitely less fluffy in the shower versus sink (tested with older recipes and a bar I bought from a professional).

 

[KimW]

My one suggestion would be to do a smaller batch. I'm guessing you have a mold that just fits the recipe, but I'd hate for you to make so much soap and then decide it's not to your liking...

For my older yet oily skin, that high % of OliveOil would make my skin feel dry. For my skin I'd swap the % of RBO (Rice Bran Oil) and OO.

 

[tha pint]

My one suggestion would be to do a smaller batch. I'm guessing you have a mold that just fits the recipe, but I'd hate for you to make so much soap and then decide it's not to your liking...

For my older yet oily skin, that high % of OliveOil would make my skin feel dry. For my skin I'd swap the % of RBO (Rice Bran Oil) and OO.

yeah i think i will make a smaller batch and swapping could be an option. i was under the illusion more olive oil was a better oil to moisturise but maybe its back to research mode.

I use a very similar recipe, at least recently. And I enjoy my bars. The shea will give you a very creamy lather in the shower and feels very nice to me; I kind of personally think I won't buy or make soap without a butter any more now that I've been spoiled with it >_>. It is definitely a bit softer than some bars I've bought from professional soap makers. But, to be honest, comparing a bar I bought from one company against a bar of my own... they lasted about the same length of time. Could the longevity I get from my recipe be improved with palm, tallow, a wax, or something else? Absolutely. But it isn't like it melts away in a couple days.

I do not have sensitive or dry skin. I can't say if it will or won't cause issues. And I haven't tested my similar recipe as a hand soap, so I can't say if it would bubble up and lather up fluffier under those conditions. I DO find, personally, that lather is definitely less fluffy in the shower versus sink (tested with older recipes and a bar I bought from a professional).

Sounds good. Im thinking to harden the bar better i'll add sodium lactate. Is this a viable sensible option.

What im aiming for is
a bar that doesn't take months to be ready for use.
a bar that's kind on the skin and leave a luxurious feeling.
something that lathers well in the shower or sink without feeling too greasy
and something that lasts like you would expect a bar to last.

if anyone could suggest a better recipe id be happy to try

 

[Zany_in_CO]

WELCOME! There are a few of your countrymen here. I suggest you go to the INTRODUCTION FORUM and tell us a little about yourself, your interest in soapmaking and anything else you'd care to share. Put "Irish" or "Ireland" in the Title box to attract like-minded soapers. They will come in handy for advice about finding supplies and such.

What im aiming for is
a bar that doesn't take months to be ready for use.
a bar that's kind on the skin and leave a luxurious feeling.
something that lathers well in the shower or sink without feeling too greasy
and something that lasts like you would expect a bar to last.

I almost hate to do this. This soap fulfills all your requirements to a tee. Make it once, and you may never try anything else! I'm not braggin', just sayin'. It's a good thing. I have dry, sensitive, mature skin and I wash my face with it AM & PM.
ZANY'S NO SLIME CASTILE

if anyone could suggest a better recipe id be happy to try

A better recipe for your first time is:
BASIC TRINITY OF OILS
It's also best to make small 500g batches to start with. There's less waste if something goes wrong. Once you learn how the basic oils we use to make soap perform, you can grow from there.

Regarding your ethical decision to not use Palm Oil, the subject is a popular one and has been discussed many times. Find the magnifying glass icon in the upper right corner of this page and SEARCH "Palm Oil" to find substitutes for using palm and how well they perform.

This thread will help you understand fatty acids and what qualities you can expect from them when designing your formulas:
BEST SOAP RECIPE

Last but not least, there are a couple of lye calculators that give the fatty acid profiles of your soap recipe. It's helpful information for us to help you adjust your recipe, if needed. My preference is SoapCalc. It's been around forever and you'll often see threads with recipe printouts from that calculator. Spend some time learning how to use it and you won't regret it.

That's all for now! HAPPY SOAPING!

 

[tha pint]

Thanks for all your help and advice. Everything everyone has said has made perfect sense. I'll let you all know how I get on.

 

[Tara_H]

We decided not to use palm oil for moral reasons and im just wondering what you think i should expect from our recipe. I do understand palm gives a harder bar so is there anything i should change.

Are you also intending to keep it plant-based? If not then you might want to have a look at animal fats as an alternative to palm.

 

[tha pint]

Are you also intending to keep it plant-based? If not then you might want to have a look at animal fats as an alternative to palm.

Yes I seen lard being used as an alternative. Have you experience with this. Has it the same qualities?

 

[Tara_H]

Yes I seen lard being used as an alternative. Have you experience with this. Has it the same qualities?

Lard is crazy hard to come by here for some reason, but the butcher is happy to give me as much beef fat as I can haul away, which I use for making tallow. I started using it originally just because it's expensive to buy palm oil online (ethically sourced obviously), and I'm actually delighted with the results.

 

[CpnDouchette]

Yes I seen lard being used as an alternative. Have you experience with this. Has it the same qualities?

I use lard over palm and love it. Its a fab bar, lasts well, lathers beautiful and its slow to trace. For me, lard is a superior choice to palm

 

[earlene]

Agree with the smaller batch to start and for all future new test batches (new formulas).

Do you have access to cocoa butter or tallow? If you are okay with animal fats & cannot find lard in Ireland, I would expect sheep tallow might be obtainable or beef tallow, although I believe sheep tallow provides a better fatty acid profile of the two. If not, I would suggest cocoa butter in addition to the shea. CB is harder than shea, and will also increase the longevity of your bar soap. If you have a source for non-palm stearic acid (at about 1-3% of your oils) that will also help with hardening & longevity. Or even beeswax (at about 3% or less of your oils.) You may have access to lanolin, as well. It adds conditioning, although it can soften the soap, so using it at about 3% would be as high as I would recommend (I've used it higher.)

Adding sugar can help with bubbles & salt can help harden the bar as well. You could also try substituting vinegar for part of your water. If you use the Soapmaking Recipe Builder & Calculator, it will calculate the correct amount of lye to offset the amount of vinegar you use to replace water in your formula. Vinegar + NaOH results in acetic acid that helps harden soap.

All this may be too much to figure out for your very first soap, however, so I suggest you make a simple 3-5 oil soap without a lot of complicated additives and test it out. Then later tweak the formula with minimal changes, try again, test it out, try again with another minor change, etc. That's the best way to find what you both will like. It's actually a very fun learning process and I think you will both really enjoy it.

But to start, if you can get sheep tallow & you & your wife are okay with using it, I'd suggest starting out by swapping it out for the OO (olive oil.)

Look at this difference between the two if you just do that:

With 45% Olive Oil

With 45% Sheep Tallow

 

[ImpKit]

Agree with the smaller batch to start and for all future new test batches (new formulas).

Do you have access to cocoa butter or tallow? If you are okay with animal fats & cannot find lard in Ireland, I would expect sheep tallow might be obtainable or beef tallow, although I believe sheep tallow provides a better fatty acid profile of the two. If not, I would suggest cocoa butter in addition to the shea. CB is harder than shea, and will also increase the longevity of your bar soap. If you have a source for non-palm stearic acid (at about 1-3% of your oils) that will also help with hardening & longevity. Or even beeswax (at about 3% or less of your oils.) You may have access to lanolin, as well. It adds conditioning, although it can soften the soap, so using it at about 3% would be as high as I would recommend (I've used it higher.)

So... how does using stearic (and I presume palmitic if you could find it?) acid work? Treat it like an oil, melt it down and incorporate it at that point I assume. But Google says it has a high melt point (around 156 F / 68-69 C). Once melted do I have to keep my soaping temp pretty high? That would mean a batch moves faster, wouldn't it? So using the acid directly would reduce the viability of swirls and other more delicate techniques I assume?

Like the OP I have an ethical issue, personally, with palm oil but I have a non-ethical personal squick issue with animal fats (I'm NOT vegan or vegetarian... but touching raw animal bits is uncomfortable. Cooking is a challenge. I make it work but I end up complicating things at times. >_<). So things like tallow and lard are out. I've been looking all over this forum for different ways to increase hardness and longevity. At this point it seems like my best options are a wax (soy or bees) or an acid like stearic. Or cocoa butter. I've looked at the "palm alternative" combination in one thread of shea, cocoa, sunflower, and something else that nearly identically mimics the soap calc numbers of palm (though not the FA profile). But the waxes all have high-ish melt points and I was under the impression that means it speeds up the batter. I'm not comfortable, yet, with too fast of a batter. I still have to think entirely too concretely about the next steps, my working space is a bit spread out, etc.

Right now I'm just resigned to a less than optimal longevity since I'm having fun playing around. But in the future I have considered trying to make / sell as a side hustle (I need a better space for it before I can realistically consider it) and at that point I would want something that has a decent longevity to be able to comfortably stand by it as a product.

 

[Tara_H]

I have a non-ethical personal squick issue with animal fats (I'm NOT vegan or vegetarian... but touching raw animal bits is uncomfortable.

Depending on how you get it there's not much squick involved... You wouldn't want to render it yourself for sure, but the stuff I used to get from the supermarket was basically like pale butter or any other solid fat in appearance.

 

[ImpKit]

Depending on how you get it there's not much squick involved... You wouldn't want to render it yourself for sure, but the stuff I used to get from the supermarket was basically like pale butter or any other solid fat in appearance.

So, and I know this is irrational but this is my broken brain... I would KNOW that it's an animal fat. And it might be butter-like in appearance. Or even a solid oil like coconut in texture / appearance. Or however it comes... and I would be squicked out. Because it's the insides of an animal. And those are supposed to be inside them, not on my hands. It's the same problem with touching raw meat. Doesn't apply to cooked meat! Just raw... And because butter comes from milk, which isn't an "insides" of an animal, it doesn't trigger the same squick reaction.

 

[Tara_H]

So, and I know this is irrational but this is my broken brain... I would KNOW that it's an animal fat. And it might be butter-like in appearance. Or even a solid oil like coconut in texture / appearance. Or however it comes... and I would be squicked out. Because it's the insides of an animal. And those are supposed to be inside them, not on my hands. It's the same problem with touching raw meat. Doesn't apply to cooked meat! Just raw... And because butter comes from milk, which isn't an "insides" of an animal, it doesn't trigger the same squick reaction.

Ah, fair enough, please ignore then! (I don't suppose it helps that it's basically cooked?)

 

[ImpKit]

Ah, fair enough, please ignore then!

I appreciate the intent! And it IS good to know. In time I might be able to work through the ludicrously weird disconnect that makes the squick. So this will be filed away as useful knowledge if/when that occurs.

 

[earlene]

So... how does using stearic (and I presume palmitic if you could find it?) acid work? Treat it like an oil, melt it down and incorporate it at that point I assume. But Google says it has a high melt point (around 156 F / 68-69 C). Once melted do I have to keep my soaping temp pretty high? That would mean a batch moves faster, wouldn't it? So using the acid directly would reduce the viability of swirls and other more delicate techniques I assume?

Like the OP I have an ethical issue, personally, with palm oil but I have a non-ethical personal squick issue with animal fats (I'm NOT vegan or vegetarian... but touching raw animal bits is uncomfortable. Cooking is a challenge. I make it work but I end up complicating things at times. >_<). So things like tallow and lard are out. I've been looking all over this forum for different ways to increase hardness and longevity. At this point it seems like my best options are a wax (soy or bees) or an acid like stearic. Or cocoa butter. I've looked at the "palm alternative" combination in one thread of shea, cocoa, sunflower, and something else that nearly identically mimics the soap calc numbers of palm (though not the FA profile). But the waxes all have high-ish melt points and I was under the impression that means it speeds up the batter. I'm not comfortable, yet, with too fast of a batter. I still have to think entirely too concretely about the next steps, my working space is a bit spread out, etc.

Right now I'm just resigned to a less than optimal longevity since I'm having fun playing around. But in the future I have considered trying to make / sell as a side hustle (I need a better space for it before I can realistically consider it) and at that point I would want something that has a decent longevity to be able to comfortably stand by it as a product.

Yes, you may soap at higher temps, but not as high as you may think, when it is at a very small percentage. Once mixed with the other oils, as long as the mixture is clear & not cloudy a lower temp will hold it in melt (so-to-speak). For fine detail work, sure, it can speed things up, but for simple designs, not a big deal.

How much any of these alternative options speed up batter is going to be based on percentages + heat + other factors, such as additives that drive heat (some fragrances, sugars, including milk sugars, alcohol, etc. Even some colorants thicken soap batter more quickly than others.)

That's why it is recommended to make one change at a time to a formula in small batch sizes, in order to determine what the results will be. Not just the end-product result, but how the change impacts behavior of the process from the start.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Yes I seen lard being used as an alternative. Have you experience with this. Has it the same qualities?

I can't think of a sub for palm that has the same qualities, but shea butter is a good sub for lard (if you don't want to use animal fats) and vice versa.