Reaching for the moon with coconut milk soap, +SL, +CA + Sugar

[Orla]

Hi all, we all have our own personalities and I, it seems, am stuck with mine! I concocted a complicated recipe with no less than 10 oils/butters. It falls out of the INS range (128), but I wanted to compensate for the high fat content (kept at 5 even using full coconut milk) by adding sodium lactate, citric acid and sugar. So I want what we all want probably - a lusciously conditioning bar that lathers well! But I have all of my "things": a lover of orangutans (so no palm) and a lover of pigs and cows (so no lard).
Because it is quite expensive for me to make even small batches and I think that I won't really be able to know the results of my scientific study in terms of outcomes for a month or so, I was just hoping I could make sure that there's no flaw in my reasoning here. I add 2% citric acid (and add the lost lye), I do SL at 5ml PPO, and sugar 14 gm PPO.
My question is - my additives are there to increase lather to compensate for my intransigence on the conditioning side (coconut milk soap but staying at 5% superfat, in a recipe that is already 38:62 on sat/unsat): even if they perform poorly on lather in the very first days, the lather should pick up by the time they get to the end of cure time? Please say YES!!

 

[LilyJo]

What's the recipe you're using?

 

[Anstarx]

We will need to see the full recipe to give detailed suggestion.
I don't use citric acid. Sodium Lactate is there to make your soap easier and quicker to unmold. It did nothing to add lather/bubble to my soap. Sugar does help lathering but if your recipe is very low on bubble lather it could only help so much without overheating.
The lathering mostly depends on your cleansing oils like coconut, palm kernel, or babassu. Some other oils can also help bubbling such as rice bran and sweet almond from my own experience, so it's hard to know how your recipe will lather without seeing the recipe.
Curing soaps longer can make them lather better as well. 4-6 weeks is not enough for the soap to reach its full potential. My avocado soap was slimey at 6 weeks (to be expected as I only had 5% Palm kernel) but it has a somewhat lather now at 6 months.

 

[Orla]

Thank you LilyJo
Castor 7,4%, Canola 7,4%, Avocado 12,81%, Linseed 1,8%, Olive 4%, Sunflower 16,63%, Coconut 17,08% Cocoa Butter 12,05%, Mango Butter 7,01%, Shea Butter 13,81. And that's it!
Thank you very much for any advice on whether I might pull it off with those additives before I throw too much money down the drain with soaps that won't lather!

 

[Orla]

We will need to see the full recipe to give detailed suggestion.
I don't use citric acid. Sodium Lactate is there to make your soap easier and quicker to unmold. It did nothing to add lather/bubble to my soap. Sugar does help lathering but if your recipe is very low on bubble lather it could only help so much without overheating.
The lathering mostly depends on your cleansing oils like coconut, palm kernel, or babassu. Some other oils can also help bubbling such as rice bran and sweet almond from my own experience, so it's hard to know how your recipe will lather without seeing the recipe.
Curing soaps longer can make them lather better as well. 4-6 weeks is not enough for the soap to reach its full potential. My avocado soap was slimey at 6 weeks (to be expected as I only had 5% Palm kernel) but it has a somewhat lather now at 6 months.

Thank you Anstarx, Kenna from modern soapmaking did two major testing runs and that study seemed to suggest that the lactate did in fact help with lather...
https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/updated-lather-lovers-additive-testing/Babassu and Rice Bran oil are both ridiculously expensive here (in France), but thank you for suggesting the almond oil. I had thought about it...
Yes, I was going with the logic of I'll only really know the outcome after six weeks or so. I really should just stop and do no more experimenting until I can actually gauge the results. I get such an adrenaline rush from soap-making! It'll be hard to kick my addiction for a few weeks!!! It just occured to me this morning that I should really consult the experts!
I don't have overheating problems (any more) as I survey that quite closely..
Yes, it's a bit of a mad recipe but it ticks all my boxes if I can just be sure that the soaps will actually lather well!

 

[Anstarx]

Thank you Anstarx, Kenna from modern soapmaking did two major testing runs and that study seemed to suggest that the lactate did in fact help with lather...
https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/updated-lather-lovers-additive-testing/Babassu and Rice Bran oil are both ridiculously expensive here (in France), but thank you for suggesting the almond oil. I had thought about it...
Yes, I was going with the logic of I'll only really know the outcome after six weeks or so. I really should just stop and do no more experimenting until I can actually gauge the results. I get such an adrenaline rush from soap-making! It'll be hard to kick my addiction for a few weeks!!! It just occured to me this morning that I should really consult the experts!
I don't have overheating problems (any more) as I survey that quite closely..
Yes, it's a bit of a mad recipe but it ticks all my boxes if I can just be sure that the soaps will actually lather well!

With 17% CO I'd say it should lathers fine. Maybe not huge bubbles but it will have a decent, regular lather. 20% CO or palm kernel is what I usually use for my regular shower soap.

For the rest of the recipe, this is just my two cents so take it with a grain of salt:
You have linseed at 1.8%. I wonder if it's because that's all you fine? Which is fine if you do. I personally have my smallest oil at 5%. It's just doesn't make much difference to have so little in a recipe.
I also don't use sunflower past 15%, especially if it's not the high oleic kind. Regular sunflower is prone to DOS and I have a 20% sunflower soap develop DOS after just 2 months. This may not happen to you but who knows. If this recipe is expensive for you you may not want to risk DOS in the future.

I get the soap adrenaline thought! Even after soaping for a year I'm still excited to try new recipes and designs!

 

[Orla]

omigod, thank you, thank you. And so, so much for the sunflower warning. Yes, I'll bring it down. As you may have guessed from the ridiculous measurements, I did a lot of fine-tuning on soapcalc: looking at a whole series of variables, switching things up and down etc. So the small linseed comes from all that juggling with numbers! Because of the cost, I'm just making very small four-bar batches and master-batching my oils (relative to my small needs so a very junior-sized 'master' as such) just so it doesn't take three years to actually make a batch! Thank you Anstarx. And actually I'm going to check out the situation on babassu oil as it does look very interesting alright. And cut down the avocado (wildly expensive here). Thank you IMMENSELY! I'll just keep my fingers crossed for my darling little pets!
One of my (brutally-frank) testers thought my soap seemed a bit harsh, and that prompted the obsessive search for the magically gentle soap!

 

[shunt2011]

Other than it being a rather odd recipe. I personally would eliminate the Linseed oil as it's got a short shelf life and will be prone to rancidity. Also, unless you are using HO sunflower I would lower that to 15%. You've got OO at 4% I would eliminate it or increase it by the linseed/sunflower, I don't use any oil other than castor at less than 10%. Castor I keep at 5-7%. You've also got a lot of butters in there. So, they may inhibit the lather some and the recipe may move fairly quickly. Why are you using citric acid? It's generally used as a chelator for hard water to lower soap scum.

 

[SeaSuds]

I use soy wax as a substitute for palm oil and animal fats. I don't need to use butters at all in my soap either. I use soy wax between 20 to 28 per cent and it provides hardness to my soap and a nice creamy lather. To improve bubbles I use aloe vera powder, sorbitol, honey or beer. In Europe we are lucky to have access to a non gmo soy wax called Eurosoy 800. You could simplify your recipe a lot and still have the qualities you are looking for. There are quite a few soy wax threads on here if you wanted to read more about it

 

[Orla]

omigod, back to the drawing board! I'm actually looking at quite a range of variables - linoleics, etc. thank you Seasuds. I'm leary of beer or honey for acceleration reasons - I better master the basics of the making part first!!! When you say soy wax, do you think that would be hydrogenated at 27% or full (this is soapcalc talking, not me!). Yes, I'd forgotten aloe vera as an option - Kenna was enthusiastic. I better get back to my real job!!! thank you all very much for your advice!

 

[shunt2011]

omigod, back to the drawing board! I'm actually looking at quite a range of variables - linoleics, etc. thank you Seasuds. I'm leary of beer or honey for acceleration reasons - I better master the basics of the making part first!!! When you say soy wax, do you think that would be hydrogenated at 27% or full (this is soapcalc talking, not me!). Yes, I'd forgotten aloe vera as an option - Kenna was enthusiastic. I better get back to my real job!!! thank you all very much for your advice!

If you're not opposed to and have availability, lard makes wonderful soap. You can make a great soap with 45-50% Lard, 15-20% CO, 30% Olive Oil or High Oleic Safflower, Sunflower and 5% Castor Oil. If you want to add a butter add 10% Shea or butter of your choice. The numbers on Soap Calc aren't all that informative. Watch your cleansing and linoleics. You can also use some Avocado, I don't use it more than 15% generally but have used higher with no issue.

Be sure to account for the citric acid with extra lye.

 

[szaza]

I find fatty acid profile to be much more indicative of how the soap will perform than the 'soap qualities' on soap calc.
I know it's difficult to make a good soap recipe without palm and lard/tallow (you said you didn't want to use either of those) but one shortcut I've learned is to just reverse engineer the FA profile with different oils.
For example, @shunt2011's lard recipe (20%CO, 45%lard, 30%OO, 5% castor) has the following FA profile: 10% Lauric, 4% Myristic, 19% palmitic, 7% stearic, 43%oleic, 7%linoleic and 0% linolenic.

I often simplify a recipe even further into
Short saturated/Bubbly oils (Lauric+Myristic) 14%
Long saturated/Hard oils (Palmitic+Stearic) 26%
Mono unsaturated (Oleic) 43%
Poly unsaturated (linoleic+linolenic) 7%
Ricinoleic is one of a kind and is hard to replace.

Accidentally hit post halfway through writing.. oh my clumsy fingers!!

Eta. There are many options for oil combinations, but one you could try is:
20% coconut
5% castor
38% olive
27% shea
10% cocoa.
This should be a close approximation to the lard recipe mentioned above (L+M 14%, P+S 27%, O 44%, L+L 7%)

About Rice Bran oil, have you tried looking for it in Asian supermarkets? I can get mine for +-€5/L here in Belgium and I'd be surprised if prices would be much higher in France.

 

[SeaSuds]

if you use soapmaking friend as your lye calculator it will calculate the lye/citric acid for you. As for the soy wax, use fully hydrogenated soy bean on the calculator not 27%

 

[Deborah Long]

before I throw too much money down the drain with soaps that won't lather!

So, to assist with your 'soap making' basic needs and maybe your newness to soapmaking, why not make the same amount of 4 bars for - hand soap - or something other than the Dream Recipe? You gain skills and knowledge overall, and may have a better/firmer idea of what you need to achieve The Dream!

 

[IrishLass]

You can narrow down the total number of oils/butters you have chosen by using the fatty acid profile to tweak the formula. In other words, instead of having 10 oils/butters in your formula, you could narrow that amount down to 6 (or less) and still have basically the same (or very close) fatty acid profile as the formula with 10 oils/butters in it.

I agree with Szaza about looking more towards the fatty acid profile when formulating recipes. Here's a formula I came up with that narrows things down to 6, and which very closely resembles the fatty acid profile of your original formula. It eliminates the oils that are expensive for you and substitutes soy wax for some of the butters, and reduces the total overall linoleic down to a more DOS-safe recipe:

Olive oil 38%
Coconut oil 17%
Shea butter 15%
Sunflower oil (regular) 13%
Soy wax 10%
Castor oil 7%

Regarding sodium lactate and lather: I find in my own formulas that it contributes more to the creamy quality of the lather rather than to the fluffy/bubbly quality. Basically, I find it does the same thing to my lather as the addition of milk does (either coconut milk or goat milk) to my formula. Because of that, I don't use sodium lactate in my milk soaps, for it would be redundant. If you're going to use coconut milk as your liquid amount, there's really no need for the sodium lactate......unless you're planning on using it for easier unmolding, that is.

Regarding sugar: I use 5% ppo in my batches, which is 2 tablespoons ppo by volume, or 24 grams by weight. I found that adding anything less than that doesn't really increase my bubbly lather enough to my liking. And on the other side of the coin, adding more than that begins to decrease the hardness of my soaps too much for my liking.....although the bubbly lather sure does increase even more in the most luscious way! There's a definite trade-off there, and through experimentation you'll eventually land on the balance that is right for your formulas.


IrishLass

 

[szaza]

@IrishLass I love your explanation on the trade-off for sugar! I'll experiment a bit more with that in the future.

 

[Orla]

Thank you. I'm a vegetarian actually, so the lard is not really an option!

You can narrow down the total number of oils/butters you have chosen by using the fatty acid profile to tweak the formula. In other words, instead of having 10 oils/butters in your formula, you could narrow that amount down to 6 (or less) and still have basically the same (or very close) fatty acid profile as the formula with 10 oils/butters in it.

I agree with Szaza about looking more towards the fatty acid profile when formulating recipes. Here's a formula I came up with that narrows things down to 6, and which very closely resembles the fatty acid profile of your original formula. It eliminates the oils that are expensive for you and substitutes soy wax for some of the butters, and reduces the total overall linoleic down to a more DOS-safe recipe:

Olive oil 38%
Coconut oil 17%
Shea butter 15%
Sunflower oil (regular) 13%
Soy wax 10%
Castor oil 7%

Regarding sodium lactate and lather: I find in my own formulas that it contributes more to the creamy quality of the lather rather than to the fluffy/bubbly quality. Basically, I find it does the same thing to my lather as the addition of milk does (either coconut milk or goat milk) to my formula. Because of that, I don't use sodium lactate in my milk soaps, for it would be redundant. If you're going to use coconut milk as your liquid amount, there's really no need for the sodium lactate......unless you're planning on using it for easier unmolding, that is.

Regarding sugar: I use 5% ppo in my batches, which is 2 tablespoons ppo by volume, or 24 grams by weight. I found that adding anything less than that doesn't really increase my bubbly lather enough to my liking. And on the other side of the coin, adding more than that begins to decrease the hardness of my soaps too much for my liking.....although the bubbly lather sure does increase even more in the most luscious way! There's a definite trade-off there, and through experimentation you'll eventually land on the balance that is right for your formulas.


IrishLass

wow, wow, wow! I do have a dreadful personality that I have to deal with, but actually without even doing the soapcalc checking, I can see that that's a very, very interesting recipe. I swear, the next batch, that's it! Everybody else was put off by the number of oils, and it was driving me mad (a bit) except that of course also I love the whole business so much, that not really. And then I watched Lisa's I Dream in Soap video on small master-batching and then I REALLY didn't care about the number of oils! But your recipe is definitely cheaper and I know a bit about the profiles of the oils and butters you suggested, and I'm very excited!
I'm wondering if you really are an Irish lass!! cad is ainm duit?! ca bhfuil tu i do chonai?!! no fadas available! Anyway, thanks a million, million, million.
Your sugar suggestion sounds a bit frightening to me because of course being a beginner I also try to do the MOST complicated techniques!! But I am SO excited, and I think I'll close my eyes and up the sugar - bit by bit (or batch by batch to be more accurate). But thank you, thank you because you really got where I was coming from. High conditioning with nice lather.
Thank you to everyone who replied.

 

[Orla]

ah, I can hardly believe it. Irish Lass, your recipe is SUPERIOR to mine. Just a bit! but nonetheless. AND I just priced it - the cost of oils/butters (all organic, and buying from French companies) goes down from 18.84 for 1000 grams of oils to 10.28 euros. So you know who you can rely on for a champagne cocktail the next time you are in Paris! You are going to save me a fortune! THANK YOU

 

[IrishLass]

I'm wondering if you really are an Irish lass!! cad is ainm duit?! ca bhfuil tu i do chonai?!! no fadas available! Anyway, thanks a million, million, million.

Tá fáilte romhat!

I am full Irish on my father's side and part Polish & French on my mom's side. To answer your questions (with a full bit of help from Google translate):
Tá ainm an-Ghaeilge agam, ach ní nochtfaidh mé é. Mar sin féin, nochtfaidh mé go bhfuil mé i mo chónaí i Meiriceá agus gur as Contae Chorcaí mo shinsir Éireannacha.


IrishLass