Last February I made this with 80% olive, 15% coconut and 5% castor. Already hard and works fine. No hint of DOS. I used green clay in one batch and spirulina in one. The spirulina morphed to yellow flecks. Still works well enough for me.
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Just out of interest: I understand how hard Castile soaps can get after a nice long cure but will that hardness ever help the bar to resist water uptake & becoming mushy and bendy?
I’ve just found some soaps I made a few years ago which had 50% OO and whilst they’re really very hard they still get a soft layer all over when used on the sink, despite good drainage on a soap dish (not sitting in water)….
I make soaps with higher p&s now to avoid the soggy bottom issue but still tempted by ZNSC
I’ve just found some soaps I made a few years ago which had 50% OO and whilst they’re really very hard they still get a soft layer all over when used on the sink, despite good drainage on a soap dish (not sitting in water)….
I make soaps with higher p&s now to avoid the soggy bottom issue but still tempted by ZNSC
I had some very well cured ZNSC (over a year) and that stuff was hard as nails! No squishy outer layer, no soggy bottom.Just out of interest: I understand how hard Castile soaps can get after a nice long cure but will that hardness ever help the bar to resist water uptake & becoming mushy and bendy?
I’ve just found some soaps I made a few years ago which had 50% OO and whilst they’re really very hard they still get a soft layer all over when used on the sink, despite good drainage on a soap dish (not sitting in water)….
I make soaps with higher p&s now to avoid the soggy bottom issue but still tempted by ZNSC
I'm using some ZNSC that's about 4 months old. I hang it in the shower with a net bag. Squishy layer isn't as obvious through the net bag so I don't really feel it. The bar doesn't get too soft also. It does dent slightly if pressed hard or dropped but generally holds up well.
100% olive oil soap (or soap that is mostly olive oil or other high-oleic fat) is always going to be highly soluble in water. And the water it absorbs is going to make a gelatinous oleic gel. These are basic properties of a high-oleic soap.
You can cure this soap until it's as dry and as physically hard as possible. That will help slow the absorption of water into the soap. That's the basis for the advice to cure this type of soap for a long time.
You can modify the soap by including salts that cause the soap molecules to "salt out" and further help it resist absorbing water. That's the basis for suggestions to add baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and/or table salt (sodium chloride) to the soap.
But in the end you can only influence and manage how a given soap performs. You cannot permanently change its nature. If you want a soap that has different qualities, then you have to make a different soap.
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Thanks DeeAnna. That makes perfect sense.
I’ll give ZNSC a go at some point (it’s on THE list!) but I really am enjoying my current recipe & finally have no squishy bottom thanks to your advice and @KiwiMoose’s introduction to Soy wax
DeeAnna - this has not been my experience with ZNSC - although i do make the version with 10% CO and 5% castor. Once well cured (over a year) it has no sign of oleic gel at all. I'm also using a bar presently in the hand basin that was made in July 2023 and that's pretty rock-solid too - I'm about 1/3 of the way in to that bar.
Cool, only another 18 months to go, and then you can put a new bar of soap in the shower!
I'm not saying it's long lasting, just that it's not squishy!Cool, only another 18 months to go, and then you can put a new bar of soap in the shower!
akseattle
Well-Known Member
Well, I'm excited to have made Zany's NSC on Sunday!
Instead of sticking to my usual small 450-500 gram batch, I made a 1000 gram batch. I'm going to let it cure at least 4 months before testing it. I made a bigger batch because in case I really like it, I don't want to have only made a little batch! The guidance I got from this forum was extremely helpful and gave me a lot of confidence on small variations to Zany's recipe. @Mobjack Bay thought most lye isn't 100%, so I looked at mine. It said it was 100%. Who knows if it really is, but just in case, I took @AliOop and @A-Polly 's recommendation as a beginner and I increased the superfat to .25%. So, just a little. I went ahead and added 2 teaspoons of sugar to this 1000 gram batch. Although I really wanted it to be fragrance free, I was nervous about what exactly "fragrance free" soap smells like. I added 2% cider barrel fragrance (6% is what is recommended for this fragrance for CP soap.) To one half the batch, I added 1/8 tsp of forest green mica. I was hoping it would give it a slight greenish tint to look like green olive oil. I left the other half sans colorant.
To my surprise, everything went pretty swimmingly. The lye/faux seawater mixture got a lot hotter (204 degrees v. about the usual 185 degrees) and it was definitely cloudy, almost milky in color, it would form a good amount of lye lint or little bubbles covering the top that I could just stir out. I was really glad to have expected that because from the first second I started to add the lye to the seawater, it was never again clear!
This is my 12th batch of soap. I have never had any leisure time on any batch from the moment of emulsion to pouring. I usually have to keep moving at a pretty good clip- I'm usually working with a 2-3 colorant design. I don't know if working with a bigger batch slows things down, or if its that this recipe has so little solid oil. But, I had so much time! It was a treat, except that I waited so long for the oil and lye water to cool, I was seriously tempted to try to make a buttermilk paste to add -- idle hands truly are the devil's workshop
But, I decided to stick to my promise to myself to keep down the variables- I knew it would increase the water, and then I wouldn't know what happened if the batch came out all wrong.
Instead, I went and made a melt & pour bar I'd been thinking about ...
I actually used my stick blender a fair amount for this batch. Usually a few short bursts here and there and the rest is hand stirring. I poured it and cut it about 32 hours later, which is a little longer than it has taken other batches to be ready to cut. When mixing in the mica, there were little flecks that I couldn't seem to mix out- almost like they were attaching to some of the lye lint that had formed (I didn't strain the lyewater mixture.) The finished bars have the occasional green fleck, but I actually like it a little bit. It has the mildest scent of a tart apple. If I didn't know that I had added fragrance, I would assume that this is how olive oil/ castile soap smells when it is fragrance free (who knows, maybe the fragrance disappeared during saponification and this is how fragrance free castile soap smells?
Even though I don't know what the end product will be, I'm confident someone will enjoy it! Next weekend, I'm going try a small batch (500 grams). I'm going to make this identical recipe except that I'll add powdered buttermilk, and I'll use @AliOop's recipe for the faux water.
Anyway, I can't wait to try this soap! Thank you to everyone for all your guidance!!
Instead of sticking to my usual small 450-500 gram batch, I made a 1000 gram batch. I'm going to let it cure at least 4 months before testing it. I made a bigger batch because in case I really like it, I don't want to have only made a little batch! The guidance I got from this forum was extremely helpful and gave me a lot of confidence on small variations to Zany's recipe. @Mobjack Bay thought most lye isn't 100%, so I looked at mine. It said it was 100%. Who knows if it really is, but just in case, I took @AliOop and @A-Polly 's recommendation as a beginner and I increased the superfat to .25%. So, just a little. I went ahead and added 2 teaspoons of sugar to this 1000 gram batch. Although I really wanted it to be fragrance free, I was nervous about what exactly "fragrance free" soap smells like. I added 2% cider barrel fragrance (6% is what is recommended for this fragrance for CP soap.) To one half the batch, I added 1/8 tsp of forest green mica. I was hoping it would give it a slight greenish tint to look like green olive oil. I left the other half sans colorant.
To my surprise, everything went pretty swimmingly. The lye/faux seawater mixture got a lot hotter (204 degrees v. about the usual 185 degrees) and it was definitely cloudy, almost milky in color, it would form a good amount of lye lint or little bubbles covering the top that I could just stir out. I was really glad to have expected that because from the first second I started to add the lye to the seawater, it was never again clear!
This is my 12th batch of soap. I have never had any leisure time on any batch from the moment of emulsion to pouring. I usually have to keep moving at a pretty good clip- I'm usually working with a 2-3 colorant design. I don't know if working with a bigger batch slows things down, or if its that this recipe has so little solid oil. But, I had so much time! It was a treat, except that I waited so long for the oil and lye water to cool, I was seriously tempted to try to make a buttermilk paste to add -- idle hands truly are the devil's workshop
But, I decided to stick to my promise to myself to keep down the variables- I knew it would increase the water, and then I wouldn't know what happened if the batch came out all wrong. Instead, I went and made a melt & pour bar I'd been thinking about ...
I actually used my stick blender a fair amount for this batch. Usually a few short bursts here and there and the rest is hand stirring. I poured it and cut it about 32 hours later, which is a little longer than it has taken other batches to be ready to cut. When mixing in the mica, there were little flecks that I couldn't seem to mix out- almost like they were attaching to some of the lye lint that had formed (I didn't strain the lyewater mixture.) The finished bars have the occasional green fleck, but I actually like it a little bit. It has the mildest scent of a tart apple. If I didn't know that I had added fragrance, I would assume that this is how olive oil/ castile soap smells when it is fragrance free (who knows, maybe the fragrance disappeared during saponification and this is how fragrance free castile soap smells?
Even though I don't know what the end product will be, I'm confident someone will enjoy it! Next weekend, I'm going try a small batch (500 grams). I'm going to make this identical recipe except that I'll add powdered buttermilk, and I'll use @AliOop's recipe for the faux water.
Anyway, I can't wait to try this soap! Thank you to everyone for all your guidance!!
@akseattle congratulations on making your first batch of ZNSC.
What brand of lye do you use?
When you have some time, here's a good article by DeeAnna on lye purity, along with this post and the thread it's in.
What brand of lye do you use?
When you have some time, here's a good article by DeeAnna on lye purity, along with this post and the thread it's in.
Hooray, glad it turned out well for you!
I was curious about whether you heated the oil. Technically that isn't necessary for 100% liquid oils, but having them warmer does speed up the time to reach emulsion or trace. As you have now experienced, OO is very slow to trace. The instructions given with that recipe call for using a higher lye concentration (i.e., less water) and warmer oils and lye solution. Both of those instructions are intended to speed up the time to trace, so you aren't stickblending all day - especially if you are making bigger batches.
I personally can never get my micas blended all the way if I put them directly into the oils. I always premix them in a little bit of glycerin until they are smooth Alternatively you can mix them in a little bit of oil that you hold back from the recipe, or a T f additional oil if you don't care about a little more SF.
Can't wait to see your pictures when you get a chance!
I was curious about whether you heated the oil. Technically that isn't necessary for 100% liquid oils, but having them warmer does speed up the time to reach emulsion or trace. As you have now experienced, OO is very slow to trace. The instructions given with that recipe call for using a higher lye concentration (i.e., less water) and warmer oils and lye solution. Both of those instructions are intended to speed up the time to trace, so you aren't stickblending all day - especially if you are making bigger batches.
I personally can never get my micas blended all the way if I put them directly into the oils. I always premix them in a little bit of glycerin until they are smooth Alternatively you can mix them in a little bit of oil that you hold back from the recipe, or a T f additional oil if you don't care about a little more SF.
Can't wait to see your pictures when you get a chance!
I heated the oils to 110-115ºF to match my Lye solution on my batches. Came to emulsion in decent time.
That's great! Just as you experienced, warmer ingredients do help with getting to trace in less time.
Still, it isn't strictly necessary for oils to match the temperature of the lye solution, or be within 10 degrees, as so many advise. That idea is not exactly a complete myth, but rather, an oversimplification of a suggested step to help new soapers. For instance, in a recipe with hard oils, having the oils and lye solution close in temperature can help prevent false trace. But it isn't required if you don't care about false trace and know how to deal with it. And in a recipe with all soft oils, unless they are very cold from being stored in the fridge, false trace is highly unlikely.
I warmed the oils because I read somewhere it helps. The lye being the same temp was a random occurrence.
akseattle
Well-Known Member
@Mobjack Bay , I use Belle Chemical lye. When I bought it last year, I had no idea what I was supposed to be looking for. At the time, I associated lye with Drano. I probably chose this one because it said "food grade" so I figured it was safe enough for soap. But, I've found quality control issues on some Amazon products. It may or may not be 100% but it seems to work....
@AliOop, I did heat the oils. To be honest, I didn't occur to me that the liquid oils don't have to be heated. Zany's recipe said "warm to 100-110 degrees." I put the hard oils in the pot with the olive oil and then heated it to 145 because that's the temperature the lye water had finally cooled to. I have always stirred the lye water to get it to cool faster. But, due to the lye lint discussion and the importance of covering the lye water to reduce lye lint, I only stirred it to get rid of the lye lint. So, it took a long time for both of them to cool to 110.
I know the oils and lye water don't actually have to be within 10 degrees. But, to avoid false trace, I do it anyway- one less thing to worry about!
There's nothing that special about the look of the soap. If I weren't going for a more simple, natural look, I would've sifted a line of clay or mica on the diagonal line to give it a little bling. My son's girlfriend had given me a bag of lavender for Christmas that I hadn't ever used. I sprinkled some on top. I think I thought of it a little too late, or I should've tried to really smash it on there. The lavender was pretty much of a fail. What didn't fall off when I was cutting the soap, is pretty much just sitting on top, ready to fall off. It also was mostly more brown than lavender. So, it smells ok but really doesn't look that great. I also have a wavey cutter I'd never used. Since I made a double batch, I tried it out to see how it looked.
Thanks again to everyone for all your help and support!
@AliOop, I did heat the oils. To be honest, I didn't occur to me that the liquid oils don't have to be heated. Zany's recipe said "warm to 100-110 degrees." I put the hard oils in the pot with the olive oil and then heated it to 145 because that's the temperature the lye water had finally cooled to. I have always stirred the lye water to get it to cool faster. But, due to the lye lint discussion and the importance of covering the lye water to reduce lye lint, I only stirred it to get rid of the lye lint. So, it took a long time for both of them to cool to 110.
I know the oils and lye water don't actually have to be within 10 degrees. But, to avoid false trace, I do it anyway- one less thing to worry about!
There's nothing that special about the look of the soap. If I weren't going for a more simple, natural look, I would've sifted a line of clay or mica on the diagonal line to give it a little bling. My son's girlfriend had given me a bag of lavender for Christmas that I hadn't ever used. I sprinkled some on top. I think I thought of it a little too late, or I should've tried to really smash it on there. The lavender was pretty much of a fail. What didn't fall off when I was cutting the soap, is pretty much just sitting on top, ready to fall off. It also was mostly more brown than lavender. So, it smells ok but really doesn't look that great. I also have a wavey cutter I'd never used. Since I made a double batch, I tried it out to see how it looked.
Thanks again to everyone for all your help and support!
Attachments
That turned out really pretty! Great job!
Looks great! That's a pretty green, perfect for spring.
I agree there is no "perfect" soap. If you recall I hate that Recipe, it was still slimy and went dossy for me before I hit my 1 yr cure time I always used for 100% OO soap. That was using 0 superfat and even added BHT. So nope that recipe was Not for me. I definitely would not go over 1% superfat with the recipe. I went back through my notes and saw I tried a second small batch with -2 superfat and did not like it either after a long cure although it did not go dossy and did not zap. LOL, still did not like it, but then I do not like OO in my soap, it always feels sticky to me.
I'm also in the "don't like OO soaps" club. Any more than about 20% makes my skin feel dry. However, I do have to admit that I don't hate my version of ZNSB with goat milk and 0%SF - but I don't love it, either. I only make it for my one friend who is obsessed with it.
Honestly, I think what she loves best about this soap is the fragrance I used when she first tried it, which was Peak's White Tea & Ginger obtained from you, @cmzaha. When she found out it was discontinued, she made me save every last drop of it for her soaps and bath bombs - no one else could have any of it.
Fortunately, I've found a close enough replacement with California Candle Supply's White Tea, although it's much fainter than Peak's version.
Honestly, I think what she loves best about this soap is the fragrance I used when she first tried it, which was Peak's White Tea & Ginger obtained from you, @cmzaha. When she found out it was discontinued, she made me save every last drop of it for her soaps and bath bombs - no one else could have any of it.
Fortunately, I've found a close enough replacement with California Candle Supply's White Tea, although it's much fainter than Peak's version.
