Question Regarding Syndet Shampoo Bars :)

[kneeley]

Hi guys! I'm relatively new on these forums(you could say I'm a bit of a lurker) and I'm also fairly new to making my own cosmetics but so far I've had good success with what I've made. It's so much fun!

I just wanted to ask any of the syndet makers out there(the sls free kind as it makes me dry and ichy*sad face*) a couple of things if that's ok. Sorry if this is posted in the wrong place... I'm not sure where syndet bars belong and I know they aren't a soap, but I figured I'd have the best chance of finding an answer here, sorry!

So far I've made 2 bars with 2 different forumlas based off of swifts recipes with a couple of minor changes. They've turned out nicely, but I just wanted to ask about the texture. How hard are they supposed to be exactly? Are they supposed to be a bit like a soap, a solid conditioner or super hard like lush bars?

One of mine had more butters in, so is naturally a bit softer, and the other had less and is a bit harder... as expected. If I pick them up and hold them in between my thumb and fingers and try to squish... they don't thankfully, but they feel sort of greasy to touch. A little like how a lotion bar feels when it is warmed. Is this normal? They also make dents when I poke them with my nails but don't appear to be sweating as I can't see any beads on them.

The bar with the most butter has been sitting out for around 36 hours and the bar with less isn't even 24 hours old yet so I don't know if they need to cure more. Are they supposed to fully harden up? Or is it normal and I'm free to use it? I haven't used either yet btw. I really don't know what the hardness or texture is supposed to be like

I would ask swift but she has the flu and I don't want to pester her at the mo.

Thanks so much guys and girls <3 *hugs*

Kneeley xx

Oh as a side note. Do any of you know where I can find some more syndet recipes to play around with? Or have any to share? I'm only making for myself and my partner as I keep having a silly allergy to sls Cracked skin isn't nice...

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

If you struggle with sls recipes, why not try a good CP soap?

I am not an sls expert myself, but for those that are it will help if you post your recipe so that they can give feedback.

 

[kneeley]

Hi there! Sorry no I'm not using sls I'm using the slsa and sci combo that you can find on swifts blog(great site!).

Sorry for the short reply, I'm at work now but I'll be back in a couple of hours

Kneeley xx

 

[Susie]

I can't speak for anyone one else, but I started making soap for the same reason you are trying to make your own syndet bars. Allergies to commercial soaps. My "cure" was CP soap.

But I am going to ask the first question, what kind of butter are you talking about? Also, if you would give the recipes, our smarter folks can have a starting place to help.

 

[Dahila]

So was mine,
Not long ago I found shampoo made in my country, with all the EU rules, the main thing in it is Common Horsetail, I use it once a month and the rest is my cp shampoo bar. I had a major hair loss for a long time. CP shampoo bar stopped it. Nothing else changed in my life. I think I will make an oil infusion with horsetail (used for hair loss ) and make another shampoo.
I have Susan book and I was looking at the syndet shampoo bar but it seems stuffed with so many chemicals........

 

[kneeley]

Right I'm back, sorry guys! I wrote my post just before I set off back to work(I work several part time jobs) and I wasn't expecting so many replies so fast! Thank you for your time!

The Efficacious Gentleman:
No, I haven't thought too much about CP soap... If I'm honest I find real soap making a little intimidating at the mo, but I will give it a go one day for sure! Soap looks so pretty and personal in my opinion!

I have tried a soap shampoo bar on my hair though and omg the horror... seriously... my hair felt all gunky and brittle and dry and super super tangled and it snapped like mad... I only used it twice and I threw it out. I had to use an sls shampoo to strip the gunk out too, which ofc didn't really help much. Right now I'm sat with hazelnut oil on my hair... I'm pretty sure the people at work think I'm mad, but the oils are helping to restore my moisture

Susie:
Oh I wish I had the courage to try real soap but at the mo I know I will mess it up! But I plan to eventually! I wouldn't know where to start though!

The recipe I used is this one: You can find it at http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.co.uk/

MELTY INGREDIENTS
30% SCI flakes
30% SLSa
15% DLS mild
10% Bioterge 804 - subbed for coco betaine as it's all I had
3% cetyl alcohol
3% Incroquat BTMS
2% orange butter - subbed for coco butter
2% Incroquat CR - didn't have

COOL DOWN INGREDIENTS
1% hydrolyzed oat protein - added extra 1%
1% panthenol - added extra 1%
1% dimethicone
2% oily hair blend - equal parts rosemary, sage, cedarwood, and key lime

I also added 1% preservative

The one with more butters was this one:

CONDITIONING SHAMPOO BAR SUITABLE FOR DRY HAIR
HEATED PHASE
30% SCI (with stearic acid)
22% SLSa or other powdered surfactant
10% SMC or SMO taurate or other gentle surfactant - used coco betaine here as well
15% cocamidopropyl betaine
3% cetyl alcohol
3% Incroquat BTMS-50 or cetrimonium bromide
10% hard butter of choice - coco butter
2% hydrolyzed protein

COOL DOWN PHASE
2% panthenol
1% dimethicone
2% essential oil blend
0.5% to 1% preservative

I did however, upon searching for these recipes again, find the answer to how long it takes to cure in another post, and she say's to leave them for 1-2 days or they will be too squishy and possibly disintegrate in the shower.

I still don't know how hard they should be though. I assume they won't be as hard as a bar with sls. So I'm a little worried about using them too soon. I think I'll wait another day or so.

Dahila:
I've heard good things about horsetail. It is also supposed to be good for detangling afaik!

I was also thinking about buying her book, but I'm just trying some normal things out at the mo to see if I can get the hang of it before I go too deep.

I'm sorry about your struggle with hair loss My grandad suffered pretty badly from alopecia a few years ago and went almost completely bald, but luckily it managed to reverse itself. The doctor said it was stress related. Have you looked into essential oils for your infusion. There are some really good ones for hair growth! And ofc stress!

 

[FGOriold]

If you want to make it harder add some stearic acid (some SCI has stearic acid in it, most I find do not and I believe Susan uses or assumes the SCI in these recipes has stearic acid in them). You can also add sodium lactate to them. You will obviously have to adjust some of your other percentages to add those things in too. I would reduce the butters in the second one and reduce some of the surfactants in the first one to account for the stearic acid and/or sodium lactate.

 

[kneeley]

Hi FGOriold! That makes sense, it could be the problem. My SCI is a powder, and looking at the INCI it doesn't mention stearic acid. Thank you so much for the help! I hope it works

I'm not familiar with sodium lactate yet. I'll have to do some research. How much do you think I should add to compensate for the missing SA in the SCI?

Can I ask, while I am here, because I've found it difficult to get a straight answer by browsing and searching the net.

Can you use cetyl alcohol in place of stearic acid? As a hardener. I've seen Susan mention it a few times as a possible substitute, and I wondered if it would have the same effect. From what I understand, SA is harder, and more draggy, and CA is more moisturising but I'm not sure if there is a huge difference in softness, or if it's fairly similar. Hope that rabble makes sense

Ah I found where she mentioned it. It was in her conditioner bar recipe which I have yet to make. She says:

"What else makes things solid?
* Beeswax - we do not want that kind of drag in our hair!
* Stearic acid - a good thickener, but not good enough
* Cetyl alcohol - two good things in one. It will work to boost the conditioning power and make the bar harder. So cetyl alcohol it will be."

She uses 10% CA in that recipe. So I'm wondering if I could use more CA for the shampoo bar? Sorry if this is a dumb question. I'm trying to understand as much as possible about all the ingredients that I have. Sadly I do not have SA atm, but I can order some.

Thank you so much for the help, it is so appreciated!! <3

Kneeley xx

 

[Dahila]

I've heard good things about horsetail. It is also supposed to be good for detangling afaik!

I was also thinking about buying her book, but I'm just trying some normal things out at the mo to see if I can get the hang of it before I go too deep.

I'm sorry about your struggle with hair loss

My grandad suffered pretty badly from alopecia a few years ago and went almost completely bald, but luckily it managed to reverse itself. The doctor said it was stress related. Have you looked into essential oils for your infusion. There are some really good ones for hair growth! And ofc stress!

Essential oils are very easy to use but there is nothing better than a good oil infusion with real herbs. EO you add to the soap for whatever reason
I have a lot of horsetail in my garden, where i do not use any chemicals beside neem oil. The horsetail should be picked on early spring when it has the most iron in it, it also works with some preparation as antifungal )
there is a lot about this common weed

 

[kneeley]

Hi again Dahila!

I don't know too much about infusions yet but they sound interesting! It must be nice to put those weeds to good use haha!

Does anyone know about sodium lactate? I'm not too sure how much I should use as a bar hardener... I'd rather not use stearic acid if possible as I read it can be bad for your cells which can in turn effect your immune system. I'm not sure how true this is but I thought I'd maybe look into sodium lactate instead.

Can anyone please enlighten me?

Kneeley xx

 

[new12soap]

I am not sure what your source is there, but stearic acid is a fatty acid that is found in some foods. It is safe to eat it. It's found in most vitamins and supplements, it's a component in a lot of oils used in soaping and B&B. Are you sure you are thinking of stearic acid and not something else?

I'm sorry, I don't use synets in my formulas (not because I have anything against them, they are just a bit more complicated), so I can't advise you on specific usage amounts for a syndet shampoo bar, but in soap stearic acid is used at about 1/2 a percent of your recipe and sodium lactate is used at about 1.5-2%. I prefer SL just because I find that stearic can cause seizing in the process and "drag" in the finished bar.

 

[Dahila]

I use 1 tsp for a pound of oils. I add it to the cooled lye.