Question about type of oil..

[whitetulips]

I'm new at soaping. I had a difficult time finding coconut and palm oil. I looked at soap sites and saw someone suggest going to an indian grocery store. She said that vegetable ghee is palm oil.

When I tried my first lye calculator, I noticed there were different types of coconut oil and then discovered that vegetable ghee isn't 100% palm oil. According to their website, Dalda, The original vegetable ghee, is made of vegetable oil, shortening (palm & soybean) and BHT. I wasn't sure which coconut oil I had, but after reading, it seemed to be the fractioned type. I've played around with the lye calculator to figure a true percentage of the ghee (mixed between palm oil, shortening (vegetable), soybean oil or soybean shortening). It didn't seem to change the lye amount. But then I made a hot process castile soap yesterday and it took 2 1/2 hours and still zapped me, I had to look online again. Someone suggested adding fat/oil. I did and finally it didn't zap me. I then made a cold process batch and put it into the mold. Overnight, I wondered if I had miscalculated what type of "coconut oil" I'm using. I had thrown away the packaging, because it was a pour spout and I would've had to warm it up to pour it. I figured that would change the weight of the oil, so instead I cut the package open and scooped out the oil to put into another container. I didn't think to read the container or didn't notice a melt temperature on it before throwing it away. Today, when I changed the lye calculator from coconut oil fractioned to 76 degree (just to see), it changed the lye amount enough to make me nervous about what I made yesterday.

How do I know what type of coconut oil I have? Do I slowly melt it in a pan and put the thermometer in there to see what the temp is when it starts to melt? Also, does anyone know anything about what the percentages of vegetable ghee are..I wish the Brambleberry lye calculator had vegetable ghee on it. I believe it had beef ghee listed.

Thanks...

 

[three_little_fishes]

Most (but definitely not all) Walmart stores carry coconut oil over in the cooking oils. The most common brand is LouAnna or if you wanted you could look for an organic/extra virgin type. For palm oil, I would look in the organic sections. I got our local organic store to get some in for me since our grocery stores don't have much in the way of organics and naturals. I use Spectrum brand shortening which is sustainable palm oil.

As far as online suppliers, I've only ever ordered from Essential Depot. I've used their coconut oil, shea butter, cocoa butter, and their essential oils.

 

[whitetulips]

I failed to mention that I did finally find the coconut oil, the one you mentioned, at Walmart. I really didn't want to order palm oil on-line, since I've spent so much on shea butter, fragrances and colorants on-line. I'd rather try lard or something that I can find locally. Shipping charges are brutal.

I just didn't want to waste what I had already purchased. I knew that I could use basically any of these oils, but failed to realize at the time that it had to be broken down, specifically, for the lye calculator.

For yesterday's batch, I noticed on another thread that I should probably check for zap after 48 hours. I want to look into getting some litmus paper or ph strips too. I think that if you add a little water and soap up the soap and set the ph strip on it, it should show whether or not the soap is near the desired ph...knowing that it will take 4-6 weeks to fully cure.

 

[three_little_fishes]

What about vegetable shortening (crisco)? I have used it in 2 batches now that have turned out pretty well.

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

Fractionated Coconut Oil is liquid, where as 76* or 92* Coconut Oil will be solid at temperatures below that. LouAna brand is 76*. They are different oils used for different purposes. Fractionated is not usually used for soap, but more likely in massage oils, lotions, serums, creams, etc. 76* and 92* have an almost negligible difference in SAP value, so the same amount of lye would be used for either, but more lye would be needed for the same amount of Fractionated.
Spectrum brand organic all vegetable shortening is 100% hydrogenated Palm Oil (sustainable) and is found at most health food stores, including Whole Foods. It's super easy to soap. You just add it as Palm Oil in SoapCalc.
Are you WEIGHING your ingredients, and not just using the weight on the container?
As for pH strips, the only reliable way to use them is to dissolve a small bit of soap in a bit of water, and dip the strip into the soapy solution. Just laying the strip on the soap bar isn't reliable. Also, litmus will just tell you if its acid or alkaline, which of course, soap should be alkaline. Most soap registers around 10 +/-.

 

[whitetulips]

The coconut oil I bought was supposed to be liquid, thus only the pour spout at the top. The grocer said to heat it up and it would pour out. So perhaps, I did buy the fractionated...meaning that my lye amount was ok?

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

Fractionated Coconut Oil doesn't need to be heated to pour out, so it was most likely 76*.

 

[new12soap]

If you needed to warm your coconut oil to be able to pour it, it was not fractionated. It was most likely 76 degree. Fractionated coconut oil will always be a clear liquid, not cloudy, not needing heat to pour it.

The only thing I can recommend for your vegetable ghee is to call the manufacturer and see if they can tell you what percent of the shortening is made up of each particular oil, and break it down into a lye calculator that way. Without knowing what oils you are using and how much of each, that will make it very hard to make a good, safe soap. It really may just be a better idea to move on to lard, olive oil, and the regular coconut oil you have since found.

As for pH test strips for your soap, save your money and time, because of the surfactant nature of soap, they do not work. They will give you a reading that has almost nothing at all to do with the actual pH of your soap. I know a lot of soapers use them, but they are not accurate.

http://www.millersoap.com/phtome.html

Notice that every single strip, no matter how it was used, read every single soap exactly the same. The better strips were closer, the "regular" strips registered every soap at 7.5, and two of the soaps were actually a pH above 10 (which, btw, is perfectly fine for a soap to be that alkaline and has nothing to do with safety or it being a good soap). If you absolutely must test for pH, use laboratory grade plastic strips or invest in a good pH meter.

 

[whitetulips]

Thank you all for this information. I did super fat the recipe by 6%. I'll try to contact the manufacturer about the ghee, if there is a US phone (because it's apparently a product of Oman). If I find that out and rerun the numbers, maybe this batch is ok due to the superfat percentage.

 

[whitetulips]

I think this soap is ruined. No matter how I calculate the vegetable ghee, it still shows that I used too much lye...because of the wrong coconut oil in the calculation. I will unmold it, cut it, admire it if it is deserving...and just throw it out. Thanks once again for the info.

 

[whitetulips]

Can I do a zap test or doesn't that mean anything in CP soap? This soap looks and smells so good.

 

[lizflowers42]

Can I do a zap test or doesn't that mean anything in CP soap? This soap looks and smells so good.

Yes, you can zap test, as with any CP soaps.

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

Zap testing IS for CP/HP soap...give it 2 days and test a small bit. If there are crystals or liquid seeping out...DO NOT ZAP TEST!
I had a batch recently that I mismeasured my lye, but was able to rebatched and add enough oil to use up the excess lye because I knew exactly where I went wrong and by how much. I had to mess around on SoapCalc working backwards to see how much of my combined oils I needed to add to correct my mistake. It worked great and that soap lathers like a dream and feels great on my skin. If you're a newbie, or are not sure how much over you are, I'm not sure I would try it, but I really hate wasting ingredients and throwing soap out that could be saved...
You can PM me with your recipe and exact oils you used and I can try to help if you're adventurous enough to try rebatching.

 

[whitetulips]

The soap I made is definately hard, no oozing. I tried the zap test at 24 hours after making and it didn't zap me. Does it have to be 48 hours? And if it doesn't zap me, do I still need to reprocess the soap to use it or just try it for personal use to see how it feels.

The Bramble Berry lye calculator I used called for 4.982oz. lye. My kitchen scale only measures to a tenth of a percent. I kept it at 4.9oz., instead of rounding up. I may go buy another scale that does the 100th of a percent to make it more precise in the future. If I had done the correct coconut oil (not fractionated), the change was about 4.4oz. lye. That seems like a lot to me, but I'm a newby at this. I superfatted by 6%.

I don't know if you read that part of my problem, but I also had the issue with the Dalda vegetable ghee, not knowing the % of palm oil, soybean oil or shortening in the ghee makeup. I redid the lye calc numerous times, changing what type and % of three oils (soybean oil, soybean shortening, vegetable shortening, etc.) to figure out the ghee. It didn't really change the lye amount by much. It's just the wrong coconut oil that seemed to make the difference.

The soap looks like peanut butter cheesecake and smells like oatmeal & almond.

3lb. batch:
castor oil 2 oz.
coconut oil (fractioned)...but wasn't 10 oz.
olive oil 10 oz.
palm oil 3.3 oz.
shortening (vegetable) 3.3 oz.
soybean oil 3.3 oz.

6% lye 4.982 oz. (used 4.9 oz. because of my scale)
water 10.53 oz. (used 10.5 oz. because of my scale)

After trace, I added some ground oatmeal, 3 oz. fragrance oil, part of it I colored with cocoa powder, layered and swirled the mixture and added oatmeal on top.

 

[new12soap]

If your scale has the option to use grams, switch to that, it is much more accurate and soapcalc will give you your amounts in both ounces and grams. You were right to round down on your lye amount, and you should round UP on your water amount.

I entered your recipe on soapcalc, then changed the fractionated coconut to CO 76 and went to a 0% superfat and I am afraid you are still a very little bit lye heavy. If that is indeed what happened and your oil is 76 not fractionated, even tho you did not get zapped it still may be a very very harsh soap. You can wait and see (although I would never use it on my face or other sensitive areas), you can use it for laundry soap, or you could rebatch it and add more oils.

 

[whitetulips]

I know. I saw it was still lye heavy with the 0% superfat. Hmm..maybe for the laundry soap. I'd scrape off the oatmeal on top though. There is ground oatmeal in it and cocoa powder. I don't know if the cocoa powder would discolor my clothes and the ground oatmeal be an issue. I already make laundry soap with Borax, laundry soda and shredded bar of soap.

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

If it didn't zap at 24 hours, it shouldn't zap in 48. If there is no liquid seeping out, no crystals, no pockets of liquid, it's not crumbly. and doesn't zap...then I say you have usable soap...
I would cut a slice and wash my hands with it and determine if it is too drying or otherwise unusable for skin contact.
Also, with your scale...always round DOWN with Lye and UP with oils when in doubt.

 

[whitetulips]

If I did try to use the soap as-is, should I wait the 4-6 weeks before testing on my hands? Otherwise, I was thinking about trying to rebatch it.

 

[whitetulips]

BTW, great idea to use grams instead of ounces. My kitchen scale, which I bought recently for cooking, does also measure in grams. Oh, I'm so happy I don't have to waste money on a second scale.

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

If I did try to use the soap as-is, should I wait the 4-6 weeks before testing on my hands? Otherwise, I was thinking about trying to rebatch it.

You can test it now. It won't be at its best, and will be milder after cure...but at least you'll know if you need to rebatch. Rebatching is so much easier with fresh soap than it is with cured soap.