Question about alkanet root powder..

[victrix]

So I bought some alkanet root powder for soap a couple years ago, but never ended up using it. It's completely unopened, and has been stored away from sunlight in a cool location. I'm trying to use it in an infusion, but I'm honestly not sure now if this is even alkanet root at all?

Everything I've read both here and elsewhere online says that alkanet infusions are a ruby red, but this so far is just a murky brown. Also, when I opened the container, the powder smelled sort of like cocoa powder, but I'm hoping I was just imagining it, or that maybe alkanet just smells like that.

Is this what it's supposed to look like? I have it inside of a tea bag in olive oil, a fresh container of oil that was delivered by mail literally today.

 

[victrix]

Ah, out of curiousity I went back the where I bought it from, and what a surprise! Multiple reviews have been posted since I last looked, all of which say that it doesn't give the right color, that it makes brown instead

Any ideas what this might be? (I'm assuming though that there's no real way to tell)
I'd hate to have to throw the oil away, but I really don't want to use this without knowing, I have too many skin allergies for that
It's only 9oz of oil, but since my batches aren't that big right now, that's almost 20% of the olive oil in my current recipe (yikes)

 

[victrix]

Anyone have any idea what this mystery powder stuff might have been?
I really hate wasting the oil, so I'm kind of wondering if I should just make a very small soap batch using just that oil with whatever that powder was. Would that be a bad idea?

 

[paradisi]

Are you serious? You have no idea what it is, other than it's not what it was represented as, and you want to make soap out of it?

 

[Zany_in_CO]

The olive oil is fresh so I would strain it and soap it. The worst thing that can happen is you won't like the result due to allergies, but since it smells like cocoa powder, maybe that's what it is? In any case I would go for it. 9 oz. of good olive oil is a waste to pour down the drain vs. getting a pleasant surprise.

ZNSC (Zany's No Slime Castile) is the perfect recipe for those with sensitive skin. A small trial batch would, at the very least, give you some experience that you can try it again later when you have a proper infusion. NOTE: Follow the instructions exactly the first time you make it.

 

[artemis]

Personally, I think your health is more important than 9oz of olive oil.

If this was sold as alkanet, but you think it is some unknown substance, I wouldn't want to use it in anything. Who knows what it is?

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I think your health is more important than 9oz of olive oil

With all due respect, and this is just me, but I believe the risk of being harmful to your health is minimal. More likely, it's something else, maybe inferior fabric dye vs the alkanet that turns red in infused oil.

When I make ZNSC I use 5% castor and 10% coconut oil to improve the lather. I start using it at the 2-week mark, although the longer the cure, the better the soap.Try washing your hands with it at that point. If it's no good for skin, you can use it for laundry or general cleaning.

In any case, I went to SoapCalc and plugged a recipe in for you. Note the Water : Lye Ratio 1.7 to 1 and 0% SF.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Anyone have any idea what this mystery powder stuff might have been?

Here ya go, Vic. Just as I suspected, Tanya of Lovely Greens gives this explanation:

One thing that you should know is that there is a lot of low-quality alkanet on the market. Sometimes ratanjot Onosma echioides is marketed as dyers alkanet and even looks like it! Unfortunately, it does not have the deep color that you’ll come to expect from alkanna tinctoria. It’s happened to me before and the first indication that I’d been sent ratanjot is that the infused oil didn’t turn ruby red. It was more of a brownish color and the soap it created was a pale pinkish-beige. Not what I wanted at all! The only way to avoid this issue is to only order alkanet root from reputable sellers who specialize in soap making ingredients. In the UK, I always buy my alkanet root from the Soap Kitchen.

Here's Tanya's recipe for all natural lavender shade of Alkanet Root Soap.

https://lovelygreens.com/natural-purple-soap-alkanet-root/

 

[artemis]

Try washing your hands with it at that point. If it's no good for skin, you can use it for laundry or general cleaning.

"With all due respect..." you seem to think that an allergy means just not liking the soap. In reality, having an allergic reaction could mean a painful rash for days after the fact. Great job finding out what the substance might be, but if this seller is deliberately selling ranjot as alkanet, who knows what else is in there.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Great job finding out what the substance might be, but if this seller is deliberately selling ranjot as alkanet, who knows what else is in there.

I appreciate your concern, BUT, that's not the case here.

What is the other name of Ratanjot?
Ratanjot / रतनजोत (Hindi name) or Alkanna Tinctoria (Botanical name) is an ancient Ayurvedic herb and is commonly known by many intriguing names: Alkanet (English name), Dyer's Bugloss, or Hoary Puccoon to name a few. It is 100% Natural.

It does get confusing when both are called "Alkanet". Thankfully, both are medicinal (wound healing, etc.) as well as dyes used for yarn and fabrics. It's an easy mistake to make.

So it's just a case of "Caveat Emptor", i.e., "Buyer beware" as Tanya explained in her article about making Alkanet Root CP. Make sure you purchase the alkanet root powder that turns red in oil.

 

[Savage Daughter]

My alkanet has always turned an intense violet-berry color in my oil infusions, kinda like when you smash purple elder berries into a pulp before cooking. I do infuse it for several months however, especially when cold infusing. But even after 3-4 hours of heat infusing, I will allow my natural colorants to sit for months, testing them every now & then, giving them a good shake every few weeks or so.

That said, I have 2 types of indigo which look completely different when infused into oil. Natural colorants often vary in their intensity / shade. So it is possible to end up with varying intensities of purple from alkanet. It also depends on how much dry plant matter you've used in relation to your oil base.

You never mentioned how long you infused that plant matter, whatever it is, into your oil.

You also never mentioned whether you heat infused it or did a cold infusion.

In regards to the 2 options about: if heat infused - for how long? If cold infused - for how long?

 

[victrix]

Thanks all for the replies!

Paradisi and Artemis I do appreciate the concern for if it'd be healthy/safe to make the oil into soap; that would be my main reason not to quite honestly.

You never mentioned how long you infused that plant matter, whatever it is, into your oil.

You also never mentioned whether you heat infused it or did a cold infusion.

In regards to the 2 options about: if heat infused - for how long? If cold infused - for how long?

At the time that I took that picture, it had been in the oil for all of maybe ten minutes, 20 minutes maximum. It had been cold infused, and I've left it sitting in a closet with my other soap supplies since then, so it's now been about 3 weeks. I haven't really looked at it since, with it having been out of sight out of mind I kind of forgot it existed haha

(edited because I hit reply too soon)

 

[victrix]

I've since then bought more alkanet root from a different supplier, this one came as chunks of root rather than powder. I haven't yet made an infusion with it, sadly. I've been meaning to but started a new full time job a couple weeks ago, and haven't really had the time or energy to do much soaping...

As for whether I make soap with the mystery infusion, if I did, it'd be with the hope that the powder was cocoa powder, or ratanjot as @Zany_in_CO suggested it might be. As far as I know, ratanjot shouldn't (theoretically) trigger any of my skin allergies, so long as it's relatively similar to alkanet. Though, since I haven't used the alkanet yet, it's all research and theory there as well, as to whether it would cause a rash or whatnot. Regardless though, it likely won't be particularly soon that I do make soap with that infusion, as I have other batches I'd prefer to make first lol

Which, speaking of, thanks Zany for the suggested recipes, both the proposed soap calc one for the mystery infusion and the znsc. Same thing goes though for those; if I do make them, it will be after my current planned batches.

 

[paradisi]

Since your supplier evidently lied to you about the product, why would you trust that it wasn't also contaminated? Bacteria, fungi, insect frass, heavy metals? All quite possible.

Honestly, dump that stuff.

Alkanet would have released a lovely purply red color long ago, save your effort and materials and buy some from a reputable supplier (and not on etsy or amazon).

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Since your supplier evidently lied to you about the product,

Um, just to be clear, the supplier legitimately sold ratanjot as "alkanet". It's confusing, but that happens when you buy "alkanet" from a supplier like Wholesale Organic Herbs & Spices suppliers | Yogi's Gift (or even my favorite Herbco.com) who sell herbs, powders, spices to the general public instead of a supplier who sells to the soapmaking community. In these cases, it's up to the customer to be sure they are getting the right alkanet or whatever for their purposes.

I just happen to have a background in coloring soap naturally, although from 20 years ago when I first started out. I vaguely remembered there were 2 types of alkanet so I researched natural soap colorants at soapers like Tanya of Lovely Greens (See Post #8 above) and Jo Haslauer featured on Amanda's Lovin' Soap Studio..

https://lovinsoap.com/2017/06/guest...king-troubleshooting-and-tips-by-jo-haslauer/
HTH

 

[Zany_in_CO]

thanks Zany for the suggested recipes, both the proposed soap calc one for the mystery infusion and the znsc.

You're welcome. Thank you, @victrix Good question! It prompted a lively discussion that I hope will help others.

 

[Savage Daughter]

At the time that I took that picture, it had been in the oil for all of maybe ten minutes, 20 minutes maximum. It had been cold infused, and I've left it sitting in a closet with my other soap supplies since then, so it's now been about 3 weeks. I haven't really looked at it since, with it having been out of sight out of mind I kind of forgot it existed haha

Yeah, unless it's something like indigo, you won't be seeing much of anything in terms of color infusion after such a short amount of time. Alkanet root can get VERY intense, but I haven't seen it get super intense within just a few minutes.

How many grams of plant material to how many grams of oil are you using for natural colorant infusions?

Chunks of the root will be more challenging to infuse. I would suggest giving some of the roots - if they are hard - a gentle pulverizing with a stone or a pestle, just to break them up a bit. Then grind those chunks in a coffee grinder until they're as close to a 'powder' as you can get them. Leave your coffee grinder closed for at least 5 minutes after grinding so you're not breathing that in.

My other suggestion would be to NOT grind all of those roots at once. Just grind them as you need them. Keep them stored in a glass jar with a good lid which keeps humidity out. The dollar stores sell those wire bale jars with glass lids & a rubber or silicone seal. Throw some silica gel packs in there too.

 

[victrix]

How many grams of plant material to how many grams of oil are you using for natural colorant infusions?

What I'd used with that unknown powder stuff was 3 or 4 grams in the 9 oz of olive oil, if I remember correctly. I haven't really decided yet though what to actually use. I've mostly been researching other people's experience with alkanet when soaping, and basing my plans off of that info. Only thing there though is that most information I've found is about using alkanet in cold process, or in cpop, but I've been making my soaps as hot process.. Does alkanet behave the same with both cold process and hot?

 

[victrix]

Does alkanet behave the same with both cold process and hot?

In relation to this, I do have another question. When adding the alkanet infusion to the soap, is it best to add before adding the lye, or after trace? I'm hoping to get a purple color.

I've been using hot process to try and control which oil is left as the superfat, so if it's best to add alkanet after the trace, then I'd likely use that oil as my alkanet infusion... Which would likely mean needing a more concentrated infusion as well, since that oil doesn't take up much of my recipe.

Though, I suppose that leads to the question of if that superfat oil would be good to use as an infusion in the first place. My recipe that I've enjoyed using so far is approximately 75% olive oil, 19% fractionated coconut oil, and 6% jojoba oil. The jojoba is what I've been using as the superfat.

I've seen online alkanet infusions made using olive oil, and one that used fractionated coconut oil, but I haven't seen any using jojoba oil.
For a purple color, and if it's best to add alkanet after the trace, how soon after trace would that be? If I can add it either before the trace, or at a light trace, then I can just use the olive oil or the fco for the infusion.

I also have a non-alkanet question related to my recipe, but I think that post would probably be best in the feedback thread lol

 

[victrix]

Also, side note, the cruets I have that I was planning to use for any infusions, whether alkanet or otherwise, I'm thinking now that I should've bought bigger ones, or at least more of them haha