Problem with BTMS 50

[froggybean37]

Hi guys! I recently received 25 lbs of BTMS 50 from Chemistry Store (states it's Incroquat from Croda), and my nailed down Conditioner Bar recipe is suddenly very soft and leaking oil. Nothing else in the recipe was changed and I made 3 separate batches all with the same issue. I made another batch today with my usual BTMS 50 from Chemistry Connection and there are no issues with this one. Has anyone found a change in their BTMS or had this issue? They're supposed to be the exact same product?

 

[Misschief]

Hi guys! I recently received 25 lbs of BTMS 50 from Chemistry Store (states it's Incroquat from Croda), and my nailed down Conditioner Bar recipe is suddenly very soft and leaking oil. Nothing else in the recipe was changed and I made 3 separate batches all with the same issue. I made another batch today with my usual BTMS 50 from Chemistry Connection and there are no issues with this one. Has anyone found a change in their BTMS or had this issue? They're supposed to be the exact same product?

I'd be contacting the company.

 

[froggybean37]

I tried that and the lady I spoke with at Chemistry Store was quite unhelpful (and quite frankly rude). She told me it couldn't possibly be the BTMS 50 I'd gotten from her and that my formulation was wrong or it was one of the OTHER ingredients I used (all of which had been used in previous batches with no problems whatsoever, the only difference was the BTMS 50). She said "I don't know what to tell you. Bye" I'm honestly so frustrated as I now have 25 lbs of this which seems pretty unusable to me currently... Will certainly never order from them again not only for the product but also the subpar customer service.

A recipe so high in BTMS 50 leaking oil is what makes me think it's off-spec as it's such an active emulsifier...

 

[earlene]

froggybean37, in your place, I'd be writing an email to the CEO of that company outlining your experience. That is appalling customer service and the CEO should be made aware of it. If they don't realize how many people are forming opinions of their company based on your experience shared here, it's something they should know so they can rectify the problem. True, the CEO might not do anything to fix it, but when I have taken this step, someone from the company does contact me and do what is necessary to address the issue. It's worth the effort.

You can usually find out who the CEO is and a contact email for the CEO by Googling specifically for the CEO contact information for ___ company.

Earlene

Edit: Their CEO recently passed away (6 months ago) according to a press release by the Chemistry Store back in August.

Apparently you are not the first customer who has been spoken to rudely by their 'customer service person' or whoever it is who answers their calls. The reviews on their site are all over the map.

 

[atiz]

Oh that's so bad to hear. I have ordered from Chemistry Store before, but won't in the future.
Maybe you can experiment and figure out if you need to use more of this BTMS than you would otherwise, and then will be able to use it up?

 

[cmzaha]

Don't suppose you paid with paypal? I would dispute it, since it is a large sum of money involved. I would also file with BBB. I had to do that once with a purchase of custom steario ear plugs over $500 that did not fit properly. Company did not want to honor their guarantee and after back and forth calls I contacted and filed with BBB. Suddenly they decided to fix the problem. The company does not have to be a member of BBB to file complaints.
http://odrcomplaint.bbb.org/odrweb/public/OurBBBComplaintProcess.aspx?bbbid=3

 

[justjacqui]

Is it definitely Incroquat Behenyl TMS-50? Croda also sells a number of similar products under the Incroquat brand name including Incroquat Behenyl TMS (not the 50 version), Incroquat Behenyl TMC -85 (Chloride version) and Incroquat TMC -25 (Chloride version). If they have accidentally sent the wrong version then this could possibly cause the issue.

Do the two different BTMS-50 products look the same. As far as I know the main manufacturer of BTMS-50 is Croda.

 

[Jennifer Gray]

chiming in to the BTMS 50 conversation: I recently bought some from BB which is absolutely fabulous in my hair, but it is too soft for a bar! I reached out to BB and they suggested I add a bit of beeswax. I tried this at 3% and it did virtually nothing for the consistency and I feel like my hair is dryer. My investment was not terrible, but I would really like to see this BTMS 50 work for me since it is so awesomely effective. Any advice?

 

[AliOop]

chiming in to the BTMS 50 conversation: I recently bought some from BB which is absolutely fabulous in my hair, but it is too soft for a bar! I reached out to BB and they suggested I add a bit of beeswax. I tried this at 3% and it did virtually nothing for the consistency and I feel like my hair is dryer. My investment was not terrible, but I would really like to see this BTMS 50 work for me since it is so awesomely effective. Any advice?

Are you using it by itself? It is usually just one component of a conditioner bar recipe, conditioner liquid recipe, or a shampoo bar recipe. To learn how to combine it with other ingredients to make your desired product, I recommend reading the HumbleBee & Me website to get some recipe ideas.

 

[lsg]

Did your recipe include cetearyl alcohol? Here is a link with some info.
Passionfruit Coconut Conditioner Bar - Humblebee & Me

 

[daisychain]

Looking at the SDSs from each store, it appears The Chemistry Store does sell Croda's product, which contains Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Cetyl Alcohol, and Butylene Glycol. Chemistry Connection sells their own product, which is Behentrimonium Methosulfate and Cetearyl Alcohol. This is normally the INCI for BTMS-25, but unlike the 25% in that, this has up to 50% BTMS.

So if you created and perfected your recipe using the Chemistry Connection product, then it may not work quite the same with the Croda version. Butylene glycol is a humectant and might be a contributor to the softness, depending on your other liquid ingredients and possibly your humidity. And cetyl alcohol has a lower melting point than cetearyl alcohol, so could also change things.

I also notice while the Croda one lists 45-55% BTMS, the Chemistry Connection one says 30-50%. So with Chemistry Connection's version, you not only have the harder/higher melting-point cetearyl alcohol in there, but likely more by weight than the cetyl alcohol in the Croda one. So for example for every 10g Croda BTMS-50 you'd be getting ~4g cetyl alcohol, but maybe 6 or 7g cetearyl alcohol for every 10g of the Chemistry Connection product. This factor could definitely have added hardness to your bars. Hope this makes sense!

If you are stuck with the Chemistry Store product, you'll be able to formulate something that is hard with it, it will just take some adjusting for these factors. (I just realised I only addressed the hardness and not the oil leakage, but I think if you create a more solid structure, the oil leakage will likely be solved, too).

Sorry you had that experience with their customer service - that's completely unacceptable. I had something similar happen when I was trying to buy a pH meter from a supplier. A receptionist was so nasty to me out of the blue, and then claimed I'd tried to start a fight. I ended up sharing the email exchange with the owner and was issued a full apology. It's worth letting higher-ups know because sometimes they have no idea their customers are getting this treatment.