Practice makes... perfect disasters!

[cherrycoke216]

www.zensoaps.com/singleoil.htm

Single oil soap test. You can start with a three oil recipe using coconut, Palm, & olive. But instead of using 33% coconut, use 20% coconut and put 13% to palm. ( if use olive, then longer cure time than one month it is. High olive oil soap need longer cure to perform better) ( and it have to make up 100% even it's a three oil recipe...)

Or try the high lard recipe folks here love love love to rave about.
1. 80% lard 20% coconut ( or 15 coconut & 5 castor )
2. 60% lard 20% olive ( or avocado or high OLEIC sunflower or sweet almond ) 20% coconut


Use plastic containers with a recycle number #2 & #5. If you are so sure you would not accidentally put emulsified soap batter or lye water in glass, then it's ok just put oils and mica in it.

 

[Susie]

Is that the ash I've heard of that can be avoided by spraying alcohol on it? I did the tongue test from the surface, as well as cut in into bars and touched my tongue to those areas too and there was no sting at all! Just tasted like normal soap! I don't get it. It just seeped back into the soap? Susie and the Efficacious Gentleman both said to wait to see if it would re-absorb, which it totally did. How did it do that? Why did you say "with that much olive oil you will have time to wait for it see if the liquid absorbs back in"? I even bought myself phenothaline solution to do a test, but by the time it arrived, it was passing the tongue test with flying colors. Any thoughts on its use?

Yes, that is soda ash.

Yes, the alkali water just gets reabsorbed by the soap.

High olive oil soaps take a very, very long time to cure. Think months rather than weeks.

Your tongue is a far better judge of whether there is free lye in the soap. Phenolpthalein only tests pH. You know it will be alkali, as soap is an alkali salt resulting from the NaOH and the fatty acids. You need to know if there is unreacted NaOH (AKA safe). Your tongue tells you that. If you stop buying stuff like that unless you ask here, and you will save a bunch of money.

And about the glass! I shouldn't be using glass for mixing the batter or for the lye solution then??

No high pH anything in glass. Ever.

I guess just from cooking I assumed glass was the most non-reactive material possible. So I should use plastic containers for everything?

Plastic with a 2 or 5 in the triangle on the bottom or stainless steel.

I bought these little glass beakers just for mixing colorants into small amounts of oil. That's ok right? just to use for oil and colorant? But I should only use plastic measuring cups and bowls for the lye solution and batter mixing. And of course can't use those for anything but soaping.

Yes, oils and micas are fine.

Yes, only use soaping plastics for soaping.

So as suggested, i'm just going to make one color (or no color) bars for at least the next few batches. I'll use the various oils I've collected and try to learn its various properties, not just from reading about them, but by actually doing it myself! I have so far collected oils of olive, coconut, safflower, avocado, castor, canola, rice bran, and shea butter, cocoa butter, crisco, and beeswax. The more reading I do about beeswax, the more pointless it seems to be. Its only use seems to be for hardening which can be achieved by simply adding a bit of salt. I read even that it is really used as a gimicy sales pitch just so it can say it has "honey and real beeswax!" on the label. I bought a sample box of 12 essential oils and few FO that I'm having a hard time liking much else than lavender, eucalyptus, and lemon. This whole venture was to save me some money on buying $5 soap bars, and now I've probably spent close to $200! But I don't care. This is so much fun. I'm getting obsessed!

If you stop buying stuff unless you ask us, you will save a lot of money.

Welcome to the addiction! Just wait, it gets worse, or better, depending on how you look at it.

I'm a little at a loss though of how I should go about learning about these different oils. Should I start with making a batch using 100% of a particular oil, then add another oil to it for the next batch and compare? Or use a particular multi-oil recipe and increase or decrease the amount of 1 particular oil in that recipe to learn about its properties? I'm guessing I should stay away from additives like salt or sugar for now until I get a good grip on oils first?

I would start with a good multi-oil recipe first, then adjust up or down to test amounts YOU like.

You can add sugar and salt, but make a batch with neither, then with only one, then with only the other, and see what YOU like. (See, now you have to make 3 batches JUST to test this out...this is why you need a good multi oil soap to start with, as you are going to have LOTS of soap to get through.)

Thank you all again so much for your replies and holding my hand through all of this! It gives me much more hope and confidence to keep trying.

You are most welcome, that's why we are here. Thank YOU for posting your experiences and questions. You are helping others who now don't need to ask those particular questions.

 

[emi]

vegan and palm-free??

www.zensoaps.com/singleoil.htm

Single oil soap test. You can start with a three oil recipe using coconut, Palm, & olive. But instead of using 33% coconut, use 20% coconut and put 13% to palm. ( if use olive, then longer cure time than one month it is. High olive oil soap need longer cure to perform better) ( and it have to make up 100% even it's a three oil recipe...)

Or try the high lard recipe folks here love love love to rave about.
1. 80% lard 20% coconut ( or 15 coconut & 5 castor )
2. 60% lard 20% olive ( or avocado or high OLEIC sunflower or sweet almond ) 20% coconut


Use plastic containers with a recycle number #2 & #5. If you are so sure you would not accidentally put emulsified soap batter or lye water in glass, then it's ok just put oils and mica in it.

Thank you so much for your reply! That is exactly the advise I was looking for. Except, I hate to ask this, but is there any way you could suggest a sub for the lard and palm oil? I've been told by another experienced soaper on this forum that making a high quality vegan palm-free soap is impossible. So I'm going to have to be willing to work with lower standards than some, which is fine. I'm not a retailer or anything .

I've tried to find substitutes for them, and just by researching online, cocoa butter seems to have the closest fatty acid profiles as lard and tallow, having higher numbers for palmitic, stearic, and oleic acids. However, palm oil has a very high palmitic acid profile that no other oil seems to have. Do fatty acid profiles completely determine the behavior of oils? The most common oil listed to sub for palm is tallow or lard! When I try to find subs for tallow or lard, again cocoa butter has the closes fatty acid profiles. When I look just for general soap properties, lard/tallow provide "hardness, stable lather, conditioning". If I go just on that, and add salt for hardness, many oils have "stable lather, conditioning" as listed properties. Actually most of the oils have those 2 things listed. Sweet almond, safflower, soybean, shea, sesame, peanut just name a few. And olive has all 3 - conditioning, stable lather, and hardness. But I've never seen olive as a sub for tallow/lard. Is it because olive is a soft oil and will trace slower? Cocoa butter seems to be the closest in properties, both as soap results as well as it's fatty acid profiles. However on the lovinsoap.com chart as well as other places, it says not to use more than 15% of cocoa butter, while palm/tallow/lard says you can use up to 50%. Why is this?? What would happen if I use 50% cocoa butter??

When you said "You can start with a three oil recipe using coconut, Palm, & olive. But instead of using 33% coconut, use 20% coconut and put 13% to palm."
I think you meant:
palm 46% (33+13)
olive 33%
coconut 20%

So would it be bad if I did exactly those proportions but substituted cocoa for palm?

And for the plastic containers. Thank you for the # advise. I never thought to pay attention to that. I have a couple of big yogurt containers I'm going to dedicate to soaping that are #5. And I'll buy a plastic measuring cup made for soaping that has those long pointed spouts for controlled pouring.

Thanks again for your advise!

 

[cherrycoke216]

Except, I hate to ask this, but is there any way you could suggest a sub for the lard and palm oil?

However, palm oil has a very high palmitic acid profile that no other oil seems to have. Do fatty acid profiles completely determine the behavior of oils?

Yes fatty acid profile will mostly determine oil behavior. Of course there are people who can't tell difference. But we here are soap snobs be it vegan or not.

When I try to find subs for tallow or lard, again cocoa butter has the closes fatty acid profiles. When I look just for general soap properties, lard/tallow provide "hardness, stable lather, conditioning". If I go just on that, and add salt for hardness, many oils have "stable lather, conditioning" as listed properties. Actually most of the oils have those 2 things listed. Sweet almond, safflower, soybean, shea, sesame, peanut just name a few. And olive has all 3 - conditioning, stable lather, and hardness. But I've never seen olive as a sub for tallow/lard. Is it because olive is a soft oil and will trace slower? Cocoa butter seems to be the closest in properties, both as soap results as well as it's fatty acid profiles. However on the lovinsoap.com chart as well as other places, it says not to use more than 15% of cocoa butter, while palm/tallow/lard says you can use up to 50%. Why is this?? What would happen if I use 50% cocoa butter??

Olive is not a sub for Palm. You can replace any oil in some percentage but it won't behave the same.
Cocoa @50% needs longer cure.

When you said "You can start with a three oil recipe using coconut, Palm, & olive. But instead of using 33% coconut, use 20% coconut and put 13% to palm."
I think you meant:
palm 46% (33+13)
olive 33%
coconut 20%

So would it be bad if I did exactly those proportions but substituted cocoa for palm?

You have to try it to know. General consensus and your personal preference is NOT always going to be the same. It have to make up a 100% so one of the oil is 34%. ( either Palm or olive, so Palm will be 47%)

Cocoa butter & Shea butter @ higher percentage should cure longer for best results. These two will hinder lather at higher percentage. And if you are ok with the cost, then it's fine.
People have try soy wax. It's higher in stearic acid and palmitic acid. But since you are against Palm, lard,& tallow. Soy might not be your first choice, too.
Crisco might be another bet. But probably you have to watch ingredient list. New crisco contains Palm.
Or search soleseife / brine soap / salt water soap on forum. It hardens a mostly soft oil recipe.
Stearic acid is also another bet. But it's derived from Palm or tallow. ( mostly Palm for us hobbyists quantity) beeswax also hardens, but it's not "vegan". Just vegetarian friendly.
Or search vinegar soap on forum. It hardens soap, too. Just involves some math regarding extra NaOH.

 

[IrishLass]

is there any way you could suggest a sub for the lard and palm oil? I've been told by another experienced soaper on this forum that making a high quality vegan palm-free soap is impossible. So I'm going to have to be willing to work with lower standards than some, which is fine. I'm not a retailer or anything .

For what it's worth, I very much disagree with the opinion of the soaper who told you that you couldn't make a high-quality vegan soap without palm, because I make what I consider to be a high-quality palm-free/animal fat-free soap. It has 50% OO in it as well as cocoa butter (only 10% is needed). It can be done.


IrishLass

 

[WeaversPort]

Thank you so much for your reply! That is exactly the advise I was looking for. Except, I hate to ask this, but is there any way you could suggest a sub for the lard and palm oil? I've been told by another experienced soaper on this forum that making a high quality vegan palm-free soap is impossible. So I'm going to have to be willing to work with lower standards than some, which is fine. I'm not a retailer or anything .

I know that many in the forum here don't like coconut oil over 15%, but I've found this recipe on the Lovin' Soap blog to be quite nice. The small samples I've given my friends got positive feedback as well. It's palm and lard free.

http://www.lovinsoap.com/2017/03/in...soap-design-clyde-slide-soap-design-tutorial/

There has been some talk about illepe butter also being a substitute for palm oil in one of the threads here, but I don't know enough about illepe to make any authoritative recommendation.

There are a number of castile and bastile recipes that people love, which don't have palm. And if you're wanting something harder for unmolding, there is always sodium lactate.

While lard and palm might make it easier to get certain results more quickly, I think it's pretty safe to say that you don't need them to have a lovely soap. You just need to find out what you like.

 

[lenarenee]

For what it's worth, I very much disagree with the opinion of the soaper who told you that you couldn't make a high-quality vegan soap without palm, because I make what I consider to be a high-quality palm-free/animal fat-free soap. It has 50% OO in it as well as cocoa butter (only 10% is needed). It can be done.


IrishLass

Thank you for this! I read through this whole thread to make sure someone addressed her earlier concern about a palm free veggie bar - don't want a newbie to get discouraged without a good reason!

Since I'm a lardinator, I haven't had any need to try a palm free veggie bar - but curiosity might change that!

 

[navigator9]

I remember how overwhelmed I felt at the beginning. Soapmaking is easy and complex all at the same time. You've received excellent advice here. Whatever base recipe you decide to go with, try changing only one thing at a time. That way, you'll know for sure what contributed to the change in your soap. Keep good notes. Tinker with that base recipe until you're happy with it. It won't take as long as you think. And we're always here to help if you need it!

 

[emi]

Yes fatty acid profile will mostly determine oil behavior. Of course there are people who can't tell difference. But we here are soap snobs be it vegan or not.


Olive is not a sub for Palm. You can replace any oil in some percentage but it won't behave the same.
Cocoa @50% needs longer cure.



You have to try it to know. General consensus and your personal preference is NOT always going to be the same. It have to make up a 100% so one of the oil is 34%. ( either Palm or olive, so Palm will be 47%)

Cocoa butter & Shea butter @ higher percentage should cure longer for best results. These two will hinder lather at higher percentage. And if you are ok with the cost, then it's fine.
People have try soy wax. It's higher in stearic acid and palmitic acid. But since you are against Palm, lard,& tallow. Soy might not be your first choice, too.
Crisco might be another bet. But probably you have to watch ingredient list. New crisco contains Palm.
Or search soleseife / brine soap / salt water soap on forum. It hardens a mostly soft oil recipe.
Stearic acid is also another bet. But it's derived from Palm or tallow. ( mostly Palm for us hobbyists quantity) beeswax also hardens, but it's not "vegan". Just vegetarian friendly.
Or search vinegar soap on forum. It hardens soap, too. Just involves some math regarding extra NaOH.

Thank you for your reply! I had never even heard of "soy wax"! And no, I have no problem using soy. I'm not sure why you thought I would? I just happen to be vegetarian so didn't want to deal with animal fats. And I just heard a lot of stuff about palm oil with the environment and habitats of orangutangs and such. After some reading I see that it is hydrogenated soybean oil and as you said has very high stearic acid profile and at $10 for 3 lbs definitely cheaper than cocoa butter! I'll give that a try. Modersoapmaking.com said this about soy wax: "A commonly missed oil that contains a gigantic amount of stearic acid (more than any butter!) is hydrogenated soybean oil (sometimes referred to as soy wax or soy shortening)." According to soapcalc.net it says it has 87% stearic acid and 11% palmitic. It's still difficult to find an oil high in palmitic. While looking at oils with palmitic acid, "Japan wax" was listed at 80%! I read that it comes from a particular Asian berry. It strangely doesn't have much of any other fatty acid, and quite difficult to get a hold of. So that's off the table, but piqued my curiosity anyway. The 2nd batch I made was a salt bar where I didn't dissolve salt into the lye water, but put a lot (half the weight of the total oil) of kosher salt into the batter after trace as an exfoliant and I absolutely love it! The batter consisted of just 3 oils. 60% coconut, 20% shea, 20% castor, and I added 1/2tsp/lb of sugar in the lye water. That was probably my 2nd favorite soap so far. They turned out very hard, and had the most soda ash than any of my other batches after it cured. I was afraid it wouldn't dissolve and lather well, but it did dissolve and lathered up nicely too. But ironically, my very first batch turned out the best bar so far (out of all 5 batches i've done so far!) It had 35% coconut, 25% avocado, 25% shea, 10% castor, 5% olive. I poured a few bars just as is, and then added some ground up oatmeal in the remaining batter for the last few bars as an exfoliant. ( I have one of those 6 single bar silicone molds). The plain ones were great! But the problem with the oatmeal was the oatmeal pieces were so hard and brittle, it hurt to rub it across my skin! I even blitzed it in my food processor first. Maybe not enough, and maybe soak to soften those oats first in water? or would that cause rotting to happen? would soaking them in oil make any sense? And I'd never heard of vinegar soap either! It was interesting to read the other use of it as a neutralizer to counter any possible lye splashes. I was also relieved to read that any tiny lye particle would take care of itself by i think it said pulling water and CO2 out of the air and neutralizing itself. Even though I was very careful using big designated cookie sheets to do all my lye work on, I definitely had worries about any possible stray particles, owning 2 cats. And the dryer sheet tip was great too! But I see what you were talking about using vinegar to produce sodium acetate to harden soap.

Does cocoa need to cure longer for it to become hard? Is that why you are suggesting these various ways to harden the soap? to counter high amounts of cocoa?

Thanks again for all your suggestions!

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[emi]

For what it's worth, I very much disagree with the opinion of the soaper who told you that you couldn't make a high-quality vegan soap without palm, because I make what I consider to be a high-quality palm-free/animal fat-free soap. It has 50% OO in it as well as cocoa butter (only 10% is needed). It can be done.


IrishLass

Thank you for this. I was beginning to feel like I needed to be apologetic for asking about palm free veggie soaps. I get that no one wants to be preached at and self righteousness can be annoying as hell. But I had no other way of getting around it! It was after my 3rd batch of soap, my 2nd thread on this forum. After telling me that the oils I mentioned are not good subs, and not offering any that are, followed by this.

"...Our tiny use of Palm Oil is not going to affect anything on the large scope. ....When I have a customer ask for a vegan soap with no palm I tell them they will not get it at my booth. It just will not make the quality of soap I make and sell."

They did give me other good advise so I just took it and tried to leave the rest, but I can't help it did make me feel hesitant to ask about it again. In fact I did do a ton of research to find the answers myself so I didn't have to ask. Glad I finally did! Noticing that so many soap recipes main oil was tallow/lard or palm, I tried to find an oil that could make up that big percentage base oil. I learned about castile soaps where only olive oil is used. So I figured if you can make a soap with 100% olive, I can use any percentage below that. So actually the last batch I made had 50% OO with 17% CO being my only hard oil with some other soft oils to make up the rest. It's still curing so I don't know the outcome yet. The first batch I made turned out really good actually that had 35% CO, 25% each of Avo/shea, 10% castor, 5% OO. I was very happy with that batch. But what I really have my sights set on is to try to replicate a soap I got once at Trader Joes. They just call it the ginger almond oatmeal exfoliant soap and it's ingredients are olive, palm, coconut, oatmeal, EO in that order. I looove everything about it and really want to try to replicate it or make something similar! I even bought a white tea and ginger FO (as suggested by another soaper) in attempt to mimic its scent too. The recipe Weaversport suggested in response to your reply is also a high OO recipe at 40% and 5% Shea, very similar to your suggestion. Thanks again for your message!

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[emi]

Yes, that is soda ash.
....
No high pH anything in glass. Ever.
....
Plastic with a 2 or 5 in the triangle on the bottom or stainless steel.
....

I would start with a good multi-oil recipe first, then adjust up or down to test amounts YOU like.
....
You can add sugar and salt, but make a batch with neither, then with only one, then with only the other, and see what YOU like. (See, now you have to make 3 batches JUST to test this out...this is why you need a good multi oil soap to start with, as you are going to have LOTS of soap to get through.)
....

Thank you so much for answering all my questions so carefully! I really appreciate it. I'm going to start with an olive, coconut, cocoa butter recipe as you suggested. And tweak proportions gradually from there.

I'm sorry to ask again about the glass containers, but did you really mean to say no high pH in glass containers? Isn't high pH acidic? And I'm not supposed to put acidic things in glass? But isn't lye solution basic, therefore low pH? and you were saying not to put lye solutions in glass before, no? Or did I totally misunderstand something??

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[cherrycoke216]

Thank you for your reply! I had never even heard of "soy wax"! And no, I have no problem using soy. I'm not sure why you thought I would? I just happen to be vegetarian so didn't want to deal with animal fats. And I just heard a lot of stuff about palm oil with the environment and habitats of orangutangs and such. After some reading I see that it is hydrogenated soybean oil and as you said has very high stearic acid profile and at $10 for 3 lbs definitely cheaper than cocoa butter! I'll give that a try. Modersoapmaking.com said this about soy wax: "A commonly missed oil that contains a gigantic amount of stearic acid (more than any butter!) is hydrogenated soybean oil (sometimes referred to as soy wax or soy shortening)." According to soapcalc.net it says it has 87% stearic acid and 11% palmitic. It's still difficult to find an oil high in palmitic. While looking at oils with palmitic acid, "Japan wax" was listed at 80%! I read that it comes from a particular Asian berry. It strangely doesn't have much of any other fatty acid, and quite difficult to get a hold of. So that's off the table, but piqued my curiosity anyway. The 2nd batch I made was a salt bar where I didn't dissolve salt into the lye water, but put a lot (half the weight of the total oil) of kosher salt into the batter after trace as an exfoliant and I absolutely love it! The batter consisted of just 3 oils. 60% coconut, 20% shea, 20% castor, and I added 1/2tsp/lb of sugar in the lye water. That was probably my 2nd favorite soap so far. They turned out very hard, and had the most soda ash than any of my other batches after it cured. I was afraid it wouldn't dissolve and lather well, but it did dissolve and lathered up nicely too. But ironically, my very first batch turned out the best bar so far (out of all 5 batches i've done so far!) It had 35% coconut, 25% avocado, 25% shea, 10% castor, 5% olive. I poured a few bars just as is, and then added some ground up oatmeal in the remaining batter for the last few bars as an exfoliant. ( I have one of those 6 single bar silicone molds). The plain ones were great! But the problem with the oatmeal was the oatmeal pieces were so hard and brittle, it hurt to rub it across my skin! I even blitzed it in my food processor first. Maybe not enough, and maybe soak to soften those oats first in water? or would that cause rotting to happen? would soaking them in oil make any sense? It was interesting to read the other use of it as a neutralizer to counter any possible lye splashes. I was also relieved to read that any tiny lye particle would take care of itself by i think it said pulling water and CO2 out of the air and neutralizing itself. Even though I was very careful using big designated cookie sheets to do all my lye work on, I definitely had worries about any possible stray particles, owning 2 cats. And the dryer sheet tip was great too! But I see what you were talking about using vinegar to produce sodium acetate to harden soap.

Does cocoa need to cure longer for it to become hard? Is that why you are suggesting these various ways to harden the soap? to counter high amounts of cocoa?

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Ok sorry I assumed that you are the green purist bunch found in California and NYC and suburban area. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and I just found out grass fed cows' fart create more methane than those feed with corn/wheat/ grass mix. And making our earth warmer. The green house effect. It totally doing the opposite of its setting goal. (some wiki search. It was a science study ) and as someone on this forum put it " first world problems" ( I think it's brewer George who cooks vegan for one of his daughter. ) so going green and all that not always create something good. If that makes sense. And another member put it right saying if a country's depending on Palm, or a farmer depending on it to put meals on their table, who am I to judge? ( some thread here concerning palm, I guess ) and don't forget some politician warn about climate change make tons of money out of it. I'm not against organic, green thing. It's just in this economy not many people can afford it. And being organic does not mean it's pesticides free. And lots of these are just green washing so they can make lots of money. Ok I rant too much. It's just my cousin and his family likes to preach the Eco / green / organic thing. I think every time they hear/ say organic they have an orgasm. :headbanging:


And NO! Vinegar can not fix lye spill on human. It's a exothermal reaction and will get even hotter!!!
If it's on kitchen counter wood floor, just wipe up with towel, then second wipe with wet towel to be safe.

And don't take it personally, we here are bunch of manic soap preachers / snobs. There are still lots of people don't like Castile or Bastile soap. Me included. We don't like gooey slimy snooty thing. And I have read someone says olive oil drys her out. Some people shoots for long lasting creamy conditioning bar, and that requires works of Palm/lard/tallow. Some shoots for conditioning less bubbly/cleansing bar. Just different angle.

Lots of cocoa/Shea butter means stearic and palmitic acid, @5% it's good to go at one month mark. @50% it's gonna take months to be as good. It just hinders lather. ( at one month mark )

Oh and I wet my oat flour in water before putting lye. Some do it the oat milk way, but I don't sieve it. Just search on forum for suggested percentage per pound of oil.

 

[emi]

What cherrycoke said. And I know it's tempting to change the 50/50 ratio of hard and soft oils, but don't, it won't turn out nice. As others have said, don't go overboard with the stick blender and sugar and you should be fine. :mrgreen:

Oh, ok. I just read somewhere to slow down trace to up your soft compared to hard. But yes, i'll just work with 50/50 for now. I need to take a few steps back!

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[Susie]

Thank you so much for answering all my questions so carefully! I really appreciate it. I'm going to start with an olive, coconut, cocoa butter recipe as you suggested. And tweak proportions gradually from there.

I'm sorry to ask again about the glass containers, but did you really mean to say no high pH in glass containers? Isn't high pH acidic? And I'm not supposed to put acidic things in glass? But isn't lye solution basic, therefore low pH? and you were saying not to put lye solutions in glass before, no? Or did I totally misunderstand something??

High pH = alkali
Low pH = acid

Took me forever to get that straight in school. Took making an F to learn it. (I am a perfectionist, so I cried over that F for days.)

And you are most welcome for the answers. I do not make vegan recipes, so I can't help with any advice there, but I did not go away mad, I am just letting others who CAN help, help.

 

[IrishLass]

Thank you for this. I was beginning to feel like I needed to be apologetic for asking about palm free veggie soaps.

As CherryCoke mentioned in her above posts- it's very true that there is a bit of a tendency amongst us soap-makers to develop a bit of soap snobbery when it comes to either using or avoiding certain oils/fats, whether vegan or not. lol

I try to interject a semblance of balance whenever I happen upon such posts going in that direction, though, because the truth of the matter is that a large portion of our core attitudes regarding this or that oil is oftentimes made up of nothing more than our own personal opinions based purely on our own experiences and/or personal preferences, which are based purely on our individual skin-types or likes/dislikes (or those of our customer-base). Not to mention the whole vegan-vegetarian/carnivore debate which fits in there somewhere with some folks, but that's a whole 'nuther ball of wax that I'm not going to get into. For what it's worth, I've been on both sides of that particular debate at certain points in my life, but I'm now a happy/content omnivore. If you ask me, it's all good, but I can't guarantee that everyone else will agree. :razz:


Since our bodies are so individual with differing needs based on our personal skin-types (i.e., dry or oily or 'normal', etc...), or our medical history (i.e., allergies/tolerances, etc...), I find that sweeping dogmatic statements poo-poo-ing this oil or that oil are very misleading/not very helpful because there are too many underlying variables that may be at play. What feels splendid on some folk's skin may make another's skin crawl or give them rashes, and vice-versa.

Whevever I find myself confronted with such statements that ignore the underlying variables, I can't help but think of the saying that one of my mentors in life is fond of stating: "Opinions are like noses- everyone has them and they each have a couple of holes in them."

In light of all that, you should never feel like you need to be apologetic for asking about how to formulate a palm-free veggie soap...... or a lard or tallow soap.....or a soap with 34% coconut for that matter. Each has their place here.


Re: mixing lye solution in glass- here's an excerpt copied/pasted from our SMF Culture & Tone stickie : Glass is strong, especially tempered glass, and it can withstand many assaults, but like Superman, it does have it's kryptonite. Glass's kryptonite comes in the form of highly alkaline substances such as lye solutions, and also highly acidic substances such as hydrofluoric acid, and concentrated phosphoric acid (when hot, or when it contains fluorides). These substances will chemically attack and corrode glass gradually over time to such an extent that the glass will actually shatter when even the most minute amount of stress is put upon it. For a time, all might proceed fine as you mix your lye solution in your glass pitcher, but as with Russian Roulette, it's only a matter of time until, KABLOOIE! One too many a soap-maker has had this happen to them- even one soap-maker who used her new Pyrex pitcher in which to mix her lye solution only twice before it shattered- so if we seem a bit passionate against using glass, it's only because we don't want the same to happen to you.



IrishLass e

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[emi]

High pH = alkali
Low pH = acid

Took me forever to get that straight in school. Took making an F to learn it. (I am a perfectionist, so I cried over that F for days.)

And you are most welcome for the answers. I do not make vegan recipes, so I can't help with any advice there, but I did not go away mad, I am just letting others who CAN help, help.

Oh duh! I totally knew that! I had the numbers pictured in my head with 1 on top (high) and 14 on the bottom (low). Gosh, I shouldn't do this type of thing so late at night when my brains not working right! I'll switch to plastic for it all anyway! Thanks again!

 

[emi]

As CherryCoke mentioned in her above posts- it's very true that there is a bit of a tendency amongst us soap-makers to develop a bit of soap snobbery when it comes to either using or avoiding certain oils/fats, whether vegan or not. lol

I try to interject a semblance of balance whenever I happen upon such posts going in that direction, though, because the truth of the matter is that a large portion of our core attitudes regarding this or that oil is oftentimes made up of nothing more than our own personal opinions based purely on our own experiences and/or personal preferences, which are based purely on our individual skin-types or likes/dislikes (or those of our customer-base). Not to mention the whole vegan-vegetarian/carnivore debate which fits in there somewhere with some folks, but that's a whole 'nuther ball of wax that I'm not going to get into. For what it's worth, I've been on both sides of that particular debate at certain points in my life, but I'm now a happy/content omnivore. If you ask me, it's all good, but I can't guarantee that everyone else will agree. :razz:


Since our bodies are so individual with differing needs based on our personal skin-types (i.e., dry or oily or 'normal', etc...), or our medical history (i.e., allergies/tolerances, etc...), I find that sweeping dogmatic statements poo-poo-ing this oil or that oil are very misleading/not very helpful because there are too many underlying variables that may be at play. What feels splendid on some folk's skin may make another's skin crawl or give them rashes, and vice-versa.

Whevever I find myself confronted with such statements that ignore the underlying variables, I can't help but think of the saying that one of my mentors in life is fond of stating: "Opinions are like noses- everyone has them and they each have a couple of holes in them."

In light of all that, you should never feel like you need to be apologetic for asking about how to formulate a palm-free veggie soap...... or a lard or tallow soap.....or a soap with 34% coconut for that matter. Each has their place here.


Re: mixing lye solution in glass- here's an excerpt copied/pasted from our SMF Culture & Tone stickie : Glass is strong, especially tempered glass, and it can withstand many assaults, but like Superman, it does have it's kryptonite. Glass's kryptonite comes in the form of highly alkaline substances such as lye solutions, and also highly acidic substances such as hydrofluoric acid, and concentrated phosphoric acid (when hot, or when it contains fluorides). These substances will chemically attack and corrode glass gradually over time to such an extent that the glass will actually shatter when even the most minute amount of stress is put upon it. For a time, all might proceed fine as you mix your lye solution in your glass pitcher, but as with Russian Roulette, it's only a matter of time until, KABLOOIE! One too many a soap-maker has had this happen to them- even one soap-maker who used her new Pyrex pitcher in which to mix her lye solution only twice before it shattered- so if we seem a bit passionate against using glass, it's only because we don't want the same to happen to you.



IrishLass e

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Wow even pyrex. I had no idea. I'm so glad you all caught that in my thread! "Soap snobbery"! That's so funny! But totally understandable. I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone what to use or not or anything! I actually don't like to even mention it, and keep being vegetarian to myself as much as I possibly can. I've even eaten meat in certain instances just to avoid the conversation and possible offense. I respect everyone's opinions and decisions to live their life as they please! Like I said I did a bunch of research just so I didn't have to ask about it on this forum. But I'm so glad I did. Online sources sometimes just won't quite get me the precise answers and advise I need. It looks like I'm going to get real intimate with cocoa butter and soy wax in the near future! Thank you for "interjecting a semblance of balance"! It was much appreciated!

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[emi]

www.zensoaps.com/singleoil.htm

Single oil soap test. You can start with a three oil recipe using coconut, Palm, & olive. But instead of using 33% coconut, use 20% coconut and put 13% to palm. ( if use olive, then longer cure time than one month it is. High olive oil soap need longer cure to perform better) ( and it have to make up 100% even it's a three oil recipe...)

Or try the high lard recipe folks here love love love to rave about.
1. 80% lard 20% coconut ( or 15 coconut & 5 castor )
2. 60% lard 20% olive ( or avocado or high OLEIC sunflower or sweet almond ) 20% coconut



Use plastic containers with a recycle number #2 & #5. If you are so sure you would not accidentally put emulsified soap batter or lye water in glass, then it's ok just put oils and mica in it.

Wow! What an incredibly useful resource! I'd love to do that myself, making single oil soaps like that to really learn their properties.

 

[emi]

Ok sorry I assumed that you are the green purist bunch found in California and NYC and suburban area. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and I just found out grass fed cows' fart create more methane than those feed with corn/wheat/ grass mix. And making our earth warmer. The green house effect. It totally doing the opposite of its setting goal. (some wiki search. It was a science study ) and as someone on this forum put it " first world problems" ( I think it's brewer George who cooks vegan for one of his daughter. ) so going green and all that not always create something good. If that makes sense. And another member put it right saying if a country's depending on Palm, or a farmer depending on it to put meals on their table, who am I to judge? ( some thread here concerning palm, I guess ) and don't forget some politician warn about climate change make tons of money out of it. I'm not against organic, green thing. It's just in this economy not many people can afford it. And being organic does not mean it's pesticides free. And lots of these are just green washing so they can make lots of money. Ok I rant too much. It's just my cousin and his family likes to preach the Eco / green / organic thing. I think every time they hear/ say organic they have an orgasm. :headbanging:


And NO! Vinegar can not fix lye spill on human. It's a exothermal reaction and will get even hotter!!!
If it's on kitchen counter wood floor, just wipe up with towel, then second wipe with wet towel to be safe.

And don't take it personally, we here are bunch of manic soap preachers / snobs. There are still lots of people don't like Castile or Bastile soap. Me included. We don't like gooey slimy snooty thing. And I have read someone says olive oil drys her out. Some people shoots for long lasting creamy conditioning bar, and that requires works of Palm/lard/tallow. Some shoots for conditioning less bubbly/cleansing bar. Just different angle.

Lots of cocoa/Shea butter means stearic and palmitic acid, @5% it's good to go at one month mark. @50% it's gonna take months to be as good. It just hinders lather. ( at one month mark )

Oh and I wet my oat flour in water before putting lye. Some do it the oat milk way, but I don't sieve it. Just search on forum for suggested percentage per pound of oil.

Haha! yes, you're absolutely right! I know the types you are talking about, and like I said before that kinda thing can just be so annoying and exhausting to deal with, which is why I was really wanting to avoid the subject, but i just couldn't not ask to be sure about cocoa butter. And I would've never thought of soy wax! Thanks for clearning that up for me about the vinegar. I'm suuuuper careful fully covered, gloves, goggles, vent directly above, no pets, all done on a big dedicated tray.

When you say "oat flour" do you literally mean the completely pulverized "flour" like the texture of regular wheat flour? Or is it oatmeal that you blitzed in a food processor so it still had some texture to it? Do you use it for its exfoliant properties or for the quality and properties of the soap itself? When I made oat milk to sub for water, sieved through a nut milk bag even, froze them into cubes, and added to lye, it turned an intense orange color and the whole mixture seized up a lot and turned into the consistency of toothpaste. I added it to my oils anyway and the stick blender broke it all up, but I felt like something went wrong there. The soap still is curing so I haven't got the results yet. I have always loved oat meal soap I've bought and would like to eventually find a way to incorporate it into my soap. Another time I put oatmeal in my soap I blitzed it (not enough) in my food processor, to serve as an exfoliant additive I added after trace, but it turned out with really hard pieces and hurt to rub across my skin. I'd love to know how you've used it successfully. I actually had a hard time finding videos showing use of oat flour as well as oat milk. I found recipes, but I wanted to see how it's supposed to behave during the process.

Thanks again for your advise and information!

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[emi]

I know that many in the forum here don't like coconut oil over 15%, but I've found this recipe on the Lovin' Soap blog to be quite nice. The small samples I've given my friends got positive feedback as well. It's palm and lard free.

http://www.lovinsoap.com/2017/03/in...soap-design-clyde-slide-soap-design-tutorial/

There has been some talk about illepe butter also being a substitute for palm oil in one of the threads here, but I don't know enough about illepe to make any authoritative recommendation.

There are a number of castile and bastile recipes that people love, which don't have palm. And if you're wanting something harder for unmolding, there is always sodium lactate.

While lard and palm might make it easier to get certain results more quickly, I think it's pretty safe to say that you don't need them to have a lovely soap. You just need to find out what you like.

I know that many in the forum here don't like coconut oil over 15%, but I've found this recipe on the Lovin' Soap blog to be quite nice. The small samples I've given my friends got positive feedback as well. It's palm and lard free.

http://www.lovinsoap.com/2017/03/in-the-pot-funnel-with-wiggle-pour-soap-design-clyde-slide-soap-design-tutorial/

Yes, this is a great recipe I'd love to try! It's actually a little similar to my last batch, but I'd like to try this one exactly. Thank you for this. And I had no idea people don't like to go over 15% with CO. Why? I've been using CO as my main oil for most of the batches I've done so far, including the ones I really liked. It seemed to be one of the few veg/palm free oils I could find that I was allowed to use up to 50%. Then I realized I could do the same with OO.

There has been some talk about illepe butter also being a substitute for palm oil in one of the threads here, but I don't know enough about illepe to make any authoritative recommendation.

Illepe butter. I'd never heard of that. I looked it up and according to soapcalc it says it has 17% palmitic, 45% stearic, 35% oleic. Palm oil has 44%, 5%, 39% respectively. Tallow has 28%, 22%, 36% with similar numbers for lard. So according to just the numbers, it seems like illepe has a closer profile to tallow/lard which I'm also in search of since tallow/lard is always listed as a good sub for Palm oil! I found it at about $1.5 per ounce, compared to about $1 per ounce for cocoa. High palmitic is proving to be a tough find. In that same site, I found "coffee bean oil, roasted" to have a high 40% of palmitic with very low number to none for stearic/oleic but 38% linoleic. I looked it up and it was about $3 per OUNCE! yikes! But cherrycoke216 informed me of soy wax that seems like a good sub too, especially at a nice $3 per pound ($0.19 per ounce).

There are a number of castile and bastile recipes that people love, which don't have palm. And if you're wanting something harder for unmolding, there is always sodium lactate.

I'd never heard of "Bastile" soap. I'm a bit confused with some contradictory info I'm getting online. So am I correct with this? "Castile" soap actually means using just one oil, but it is usually olive oil and one can assume "castile soap" to be 100% olive oil soap. "Bastile" soap is when olive oil is the main oil containing at least 50% of the oils and rest are a combo of other oils in smaller amounts. Just by looking up "Bastile" I immediately found many veg/palm free recipes come up so quickly! So thank you for this! I've been having such a hard time finding these recipes! If I looked up "vegan" or "animal free" the recipes would have mainly palm. And if I looked up "palm-free" the recipes would mainly have animal oils! And if I looked up "animal free palm free" they'd just all show up at the same time! Ahhhh!
:headbanging:

While lard and palm might make it easier to get certain results more quickly, I think it's pretty safe to say that you don't need them to have a lovely soap. You just need to find out what you like.[/quote]

Thank you for that. I appreciate the support and encouragement!