Pouring CP before trace

[Carl]

I've been waiting until trace to pour my CP soap. For me, this is when it gets like pudding and the stick blender will leave designs on the top. It usually takes me about 4-5 minutes of stick blending to get there.

I read one of Soap Queens articles where she did a 2 color swirl. But she started pouring way before trace. She stick blended for only about 20 seconds! This made is way easier to pour the colors.

Is there any risk involved with doing this? I'm assuming trace occurred after the soap was poured, correct?

 

[shunt2011]

I rarely every wait till trace to pour. I pour once it's emulsified and there are no free oils on top. It's still really fluid and doesn't separate. The only risk involved is it could separate if not emulsified enough. I do multi color swirls and this allows me the time to get it accomplished. Just make sure you're not using a FO that accelerates.

 

[Candybee]

Same here. Most of my soaps I do multi colored swirls so I just SB enough to emulsify the batter, split into seperate bowls for coloring then pour into mold. I almost never SB to trace with the exception of my goat milk & oatmeal soaps. I don't color these and I want to be able to do a stick swirl on the top so they look pretty. So I SB to medium trace so I know my stick swirl will stay put and not sink back into the batter in the mold. Hope that makes sense.

There is a small learning curve for knowing exactly when the batter is emulsified enough to keep from seperating. I wish I could explain better but its before I reach even a light trace. I can always tell by the look of the batter emulsion and know when to stop. If I get it wrong and SB too long I may not have time to do all my swirls.

 

[SaltedFig]

Newbie posted a video of stickblending to emulsion in this soapmaking forum thread: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/stickblending-to-emulsion.60618/

Newbie's stickblending to emulsion video:

 

[lakelodge]

Thank you for the video Salted Fig! That was quite helpful!

 

[Clarice]

WOW - you have all just expanded my horizons.

So - to be sure I understand - if i have achieved full emulsion, but am not yet at even light trace, I can pour the soap?

If that is right - MAJOR lightbulb. I have been tracing things way too far, and then when adding things like clay, the soap gets really really thick

So - I could start adding clay after emulsion, correct?

Als0 - with respect to adding things like clay or charcoal or nearly any powdered additive, I have read different methods to achieve a good dispersion:

1. spoon out a small bit of the soap, add it to your powder, mix well to get into solution, return to 'main soap", blend to mix into total
2. have your powder "pre-mixed" with a little bit of soft oil, pour it into your soap, blend fully
3. dump powder right into soap, blend away

Thoughts on any of these methods?

Is the mixing part of my Q in this thread a hi-jack? Want to be sure I understand the rules of the forum.

thank you all so much, C

 

[DeeAnna]

Beginners usually SB way too much from what I've seen on SMF over the years. Not their fault -- a person has to learn what works and what doesn't and that just takes time and practice. You can always SB more but if you SB too much you can't undo that. I typically stick blend maybe 10-20 seconds tops before portioning out batter for different colors or whatever. I then briefly SB the colors into the soap batter as needed, so there's a few seconds of additional mixing. But generally well under 1 minute total, unless the batter isn't thickening up enough by the time it's colored, mixed, and I'm ready to pour.

Which brings me to a related point -- If the soap batter is slow moving and staying thin, I do not SB continuously. I get just as far about as fast if I stick blend for maybe 10-20 seconds, lets the batter sit for a few minutes with intermittent hand mixing, SB for another 10-20 sec, and repeat until the batter thickens enough for me. That saves my stick blender and my temper. While I wait for the batter to thicken, I'd rather be cleaning up or prepping for the next batch -- anything besides using a stick blender continuously. You only need to blend enough maintain the emulsion, not beat the batter into submission.

Be aware that pouring emulsified soap batter into the mold (as opposed to pouring at trace) increases the chances of emulsion failure -- meaning your soap may be more likely to separate in the mold during saponification. So that's something to keep in mind if you're going to try this and you're fond of the CPOP method where you warm the soap in the oven or other methods where the soap is kept extra warm during saponification. Or if you use additives (sugar for example) that cause the soap to get hotter during saponification. Also the risk of emulsion failure is higher if you soap with a low lye concentration (more water) and want to pour at emulsion. Not saying emulsion failure WILL happen, just that the chance is higher that it COULD happen.

 

[Clarice]

WOWOWOWOW so much learning! Thank you so much!

so, to be sure I understand the separation part - I don't do the oven method (oven busted lol) so i am LESS likely to see the separation? I gleaned from above that the oven method could exacerbate separation in "just emulsified" soap. Did i glean right?

AND -

Lye concentration (ratio of water to lye) is entirely different from percent lye?

(brains starting to leak out of my ears, I may need to go lie down with a cool cloth on my forehead)

 

[DeeAnna]

If you don't do CPOP or otherwise keep your soap well warmed during saponification, your soap is not as likely to separate in the mold if it's put into the mold at emulsion vs. trace. Like I said before, extra warmth and/or higher water content increase the chances that separation MIGHT happen, it doesn't mean that it WILL happen. Please don't stress out about it -- I'm just trying to explain things, not scare people.

***

The online soap calcs that I'm familiar with offer three ways to calculate the water content -- lye concentration, water:lye ratio, and water as % of oils. I can't say I've seen a setting called "percent lye" so I'm not sure what you mean by that.

When I say "lower lye concentration" I'm referring to the setting in your soap recipe calc called lye concentration. If you want more water in proportion to the alkali (lye), you use a lower number for the lye concentration. For example 28% lye concentration is pretty watery. If you want less water in proportion to the alkali, you use a higher number. For example 33% lye concentration.

Here are a couple articles on my website about this topic: https://classicbells.com/soap/waterInSoap.html and https://classicbells.com/soap/waterRatioConc.html

 

[Clarice]

lye concentration,

Sorry - it is the concentration - since it is expressed in % i called it the wrong name!

And now that I think of it - if I have 2:1 water to lye ratio, that is the same as 33% lye in solution - right?

Did you hear the thunk of that penny dropping!

Your classic Bells is AMAZING - I have it pinned to my search bar so I can go there easily - you are fabulous - tank you so much!

 

[DeeAnna]

...And now that I think of it - if I have 2:1 water to lye ratio, that is the same as 33% lye in solution - right?...

Yep! To be correct 2:1 water:lye ratio is 33.33...% lye concentration, but a lot of us round it to just 33% in general conversation.

I'm glad my articles are helpful. Thank you for your kind words! They mean a lot to me.

 

[cmzaha]

A lot will also depend on your recipe. Both my main recipes trace fast so I hit it with one pr two burst of the SB, separate quickly for colors then bring each color to true emulsion. I never thought about it before but DeeAnna explained it well about pouring off before you achieve a stable emulsion, it is just how I have to do it with my recipes.

I judge emulsion by the bell of my SB, it it has a light coating it is emulsified, if I just see oil or oil/batter separation I SB a burst at a time. Hopefully I explained it okay. Recognizing emulsion can be a bit tricky

 

[DeeAnna]

...DeeAnna explained it well about pouring off before you achieve a stable emulsion, it is just how I have to do it with my recipes....

Do you mean my Post 13 in this thread? https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/pouring-batter-before-emulsion.73756/

 

[Clarice]

@DeeAnna - your articles are WAAAAAYYYYYY beyond helpful. They are freaking miraculous!

I have read them several times and as my understanding grows, i get more and more out of them. WOW - you blow my mind! SOOOOOOO helpful and so gracious of you to have offered this resource! NAMASTE!!!!

 

[Christine Beale]

Do you mean my Post 13 in this thread? https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/pouring-batter-before-emulsion.73756/

Thank you for your link to some fantastic learning pages!!

 

[Jstheidi]

Newbie posted a video of stickblending to emulsion in this soapmaking forum thread: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/stickblending-to-emulsion.60618/

Newbie's stickblending to emulsion video:

Thanks for this video. I think I’m SB way too much and that’s why I can’t get pretty swirls. This will help quite a bit.