Possible controversy: Castile

[Bill Jones]

Back when I was actively making soap, Castile soap was a 100% olive oil soap. Now that I am getting back into the swing of things, I am starting to notice labels and what is written in books and Castile means something totally different then it did back in the early to mid 90's.
At target there is a bar labeled Pure-Castile soap and the first ingredients are Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Palm Oil, Sodium Hydroxide, water and Organic Olive Oil, etc... I have a photo of the label but to be fair to the manufacture I dont want to post it unless it is okay-ed by the admins/mods.

What am I missing?

 

[KiwiMoose]

Apparently, in the States at least, it's 'OK' to now call a soap a Castile if it contains a certain amount of OO. It doesn't have to be 100%. I'm not sure what the minimum amount is that qualifies for the nomenclature, but previously this would have more accurately been called a Bastille ( meaning high OO, but with other ingredients).

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Howdy BJ!

Back in the day "Castile" meant 100% olive oil soap and "Bastile" meant at least 70% olive oil plus other oils. It's basic "soaper's lingo" and doesn't apply to the real world. Technically and legally, any soap made with vegetable oils, i.e., no animal fats, is considered a castile soap. Two well-known examples that have been around for ages are Dr. Bronner's from the hippie days and Kirk's Coco Castile that went to court to maintain the right to call their soap "Castile".

ETA: You may remember from your soaping days, that 100% olive oil castile required a minimum 3-month cure and often resulted in a "snotty" bar that had a love/hate relationship with the soapmaking community. If interested in shortening cure time and reducing slime, check out this recipe:
Zany's No Slime Castile

One more thing to be aware of is adulterated olive oil, usually EVOO. Google "fake olive oil" or "faux olive oil" to learn more and how to avoid it.

HAPPY SOAPING!

 

[Bill Jones]

Howdy BJ!

Back in the day "Castile" meant 100% olive oil soap and "Bastile" meant at least 70% olive oil plus other oils. It's basic "soaper's lingo" and doesn't apply to the real world. Technically and legally, any soap made with vegetable oils, i.e., no animal fats, is considered a castile soap. Two well-known examples that have been around for ages are Dr. Bronner's from the hippie days and Kirk's Coco Castile that went to court to maintain the right to call their soap "Castile".

ETA: You may remember from your soaping days, that 100% olive oil castile required a minimum 3-month cure and often resulted in a "snotty" bar that had a love/hate relationship with the soapmaking community. If interested in shortening cure time and reducing slime, check out this recipe:
Zany's No Slime Castile

One more thing to be aware of is adulterated olive oil, usually EVOO. Google "fake olive oil" or "faux olive oil" to learn more and how to avoid it.

HAPPY SOAPING!

Well you named the blue bar I picked up... My memory not being what it used to be, Castile vs Bastile is pretty close to what I remember.

On a second note, yes I remember the slimy bars of 100% OO. I always cheated a bit and added about 20% Coconut to make the bar harder. Though I never represented it as a Castile bar. Im going to have to let some old ideas and memories go. I just wish I could start today and not wait.


- Build the molds and the soap will come - Who keeps whispering that?

 

[TheGecko]

What am I missing?

Nothing. Just a natural progression of how things change. The origins of “Castile: soap can be found in the Aleppo soap-makers, which was brought back from the Crusades. Only the local soap makers couldn’t source laurel oil, so they made a 100% Olive Oil soap. You don’t have to be from the Castile region of Spain to make Castile soap and since it’s just a single-oil soap, and so any single-oil soap could be a ‘Castile’ soap...like a Coco Castile or a Shea Castile. And since olive oil, coconut oil and butter all come plants, a ‘Castile’ soap is now any “vegetable-based soap that’s made free of animal fats and synthetic ingredients.”

In the US, there isn’t a whole lot of regulation when it comes to ‘soap’...providing you don’t make any cosmetic or drug claims.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Wow -so all my soap is 'castile' ( no animal fats).

 

[Bill Jones]

In the US, there isn’t a whole lot of regulation when it comes to ‘soap’...providing you don’t make any cosmetic or drug claims.

Nothing has changed in that regard.

 

[Obsidian]

Even though any veggie soap in the US is legally a castile, most all of us soap makers still consider castile to be 100% olive.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

- Build the molds and the soap will come - Who keeps whispering that?

Keep an eye on your corn field!

‘Castile’ soap is now any “vegetable-based soap that’s made free of animal fats and synthetic ingredients.”

Speaking of "synthetic ingredients" there is a whole contingent of SMF members who prefer to make "syndets" (synthetic /detergent bars) to all natural soap bars. That's prolly the biggest change I've seen in my 15 years of soapmaking. I'm not one of them. Old School here.

ETA: @BillJones Unless you are planning to go into production big time, I find WSP's Silicone Loaf Mold 1501 to suit my needs as a hobbyist perfectly. I use approx 30 oz oils to make 40 oz soap that fills the mold to the brim YMMV (Your Milage May Vary). Once cut, it makes eight 1" thick bars. I have 2 of them if I want to make a 60 oz oil batch which is what I used to do for my wholesale customers in a wood mold that produces 16 bars. I grease the molds lightly with mineral (baby) oil for easy release. Eliminates having to line the mold.

 

[Misschief]

Speaking of "synthetic ingredients" there is a whole contingent of SMF members who prefer to make "syndets" (synthetic /detergent bars) to all natural soap bars. That's prolly the biggest change I've seen in my 15 years of soapmaking. I'm not one of them. Old School here.

Only for shampoo bars. All my soap is just that... soap. Only my shampoo bars are syndets.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Only for shampoo bars. All my soap is just that... soap. Only my shampoo bars are syndets.

Would you care to share a link so @BillJones can have a peek to see what it's all about?

 

[fey]

Howdy BJ!
ETA: You may remember from your soaping days, that 100% olive oil castile required a minimum 3-month cure and often resulted in a "snotty" bar that had a love/hate relationship with the soapmaking community. If interested in shortening cure time and reducing slime, check out this recipe:
Zany's No Slime Castile

One more thing to be aware of is adulterated olive oil, usually EVOO. Google "fake olive oil" or "faux olive oil" to learn more and how to avoid it.

HAPPY SOAPING!

I made my first attempt at 100% olive oil soap about two weeks ago. I went the hot process route. The bars are super oily & slimy, and after doing a little digging, I'm wondering if possibly it was at false trace. I can't decide whether it would be better to try and rebatch (something I've never done before), or, if I should just let it cure for a while longer and see what happens. Thoughts?

 

[TheGecko]

Im going to have to let some old ideas and memories go.

Check out the thread by @John Harris about Lard (https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/haunted-by-lard-tallow.76696/)

 

[Bill Jones]

Keep an eye on your corn field!

Speaking of "synthetic ingredients" there is a whole contingent of SMF members who prefer to make "syndets" (synthetic /detergent bars) to all natural soap bars. That's prolly the biggest change I've seen in my 15 years of soapmaking. I'm not one of them. Old School here.

ETA: @BillJones Unless you are planning to go into production big time, I find WSP's Silicone Loaf Mold 1501 to suit my needs as a hobbyist perfectly. I use approx 30 oz oils to make 40 oz soap that fills the mold to the brim YMMV (Your Milage May Vary). Once cut, it makes eight 1" thick bars. I have 2 of them if I want to make a 60 oz oil batch which is what I used to do for my wholesale customers in a wood mold that produces 16 bars. I grease the molds lightly with mineral (baby) oil for easy release. Eliminates having to line the mold.

That would be up to the wife. I do what I am told! (mostly) If she wants to sell some once and if I get into the swing of things, well I become cheap labor. I dont intend to do so but in all reality it is up to her. I dont deal well with self marketing or crowds.

Check out the thread by @John Harris about Lard (https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/haunted-by-lard-tallow.76696/)

Long read. I have no issues with animal fat. Nor the biases I noticed. For each there own, right?

 

[shunt2011]

I’m one who really dislikes Castile no matter how it’s made. I find it drying to my skin and slimy as all get go. Even Zanys isn’t to my liking. And to be clear the only synthetics used by folks here is fro shampoo bars and Zany knows this. There are several threads regarding using soap as shampoo on the forum. Many cannot use soap on their hair as it’s ruined it. Me for one. You’ll find a lot of information on the forum to spread your wings in soapmaking. It’s an adventure for sure.

 

[DeeAnna]

...I'm wondering if possibly it was at false trace....

False trace happens when the soap batter cools below the melting point of the fats in your recipe. Unless you were making your 100% olive oil soap in a freezer, I'd say false trace was pretty unlikely. If you were making a 100% lard soap and chose to use an icy cold lye solution, then false trace could easily happen.

This question might be best asked in a new thread, @fey, since this one is not really an olive oil soap troubleshooting thread. And it should go in the Beginners forum or the Lye based Soap forum. This thread is in the Labels and Packaging forum which is a poor fit for your question.

Be sure to explain your entire recipe and general method as well as explain your concerns. That way people can understand what you did and give better advice. Oh, and you might want to introduce yourself in the Intro forum so people can get to know ya.

 

[Primrose]

I'll be a brave soul and admit I label one of my bars "chamomile castile with cocoa butter", yes it has a wee bit of cocoa butter and castor oil in it. The general population doesn't have the faintest idea what a bastile is so no point labelling it that, and it's very different to my main line of soaps and very close to a castile. So that's what I labelled it.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I made my first attempt at 100% olive oil soap about two weeks ago. I went the hot process route. The bars are super oily & slimy

Hiya Fey! This is not an unusual experience for the first time making 100% olive oil castile soap. There are any number of reasons that happened. I encourage you to go to the Recipe Feedback forum and post your recipe there, as well as your method, to reach a wider audience -- so others can give input.

This thread is in the Labels and Packaging forum

LOL Oopsie! Hopefully someone will move it to a more appropriate forum. Yoo hoo, Admin?

I dont deal well with self marketing or crowds.

I hear ya! I'm the same way, plus I can't take the heat of all-day at a farmer's market and I'm not all that computer literate to maintain a website online. Along the way as a hobbyist, I had the very good fortune to pick up a few wholesale customers for whom I made all sorts of soap, lotion, lip balm, liquid soap and other bath and body products. I did that for ten years until I retired in July 2018. I am eternally grateful to those good people for enabling me to support my addiction to this rather pricey hobby.

Whatever the wife decides, I wish you well on your journey and look forward to hearing about your travels.