Please help me understand these recipes

[narnia]

The first recipe is the one I used for my first batch. Soap was great! My skin felt nice and smooth and kind of moisturized.

The second one...my skin felt dry after using and my scalp has been itching for days!

Now, what I can't understand is.....the soap bar quality values are very close, and the cleansing and conditioning values are the same. So, why would I feel drier with the second? Why the itching? Could it be the beeswax?

The other factors that changed in second recipe:
1. Unrefined shea butter in the first and refined in the second.
2. Mediterranean OO (100%) in the first and pomace in the second.

 

[traderbren]

In your second recipe, the castor oil is double the first, and your olive oil is much less. That could very well make a difference in how your soap feels. Even though your soap calc numbers have similar profiles, the difference in oils used can change the actual feel of your soap.

Also keep in mind that the way a soap feels after a few days or a week could be hugely different than after a good long cure. How long did you wait before trying each batch? A soap that leaves you feeling dry after a few days could turn into an awesome soap after a month or more. I personally won't let a soap leave my possession until I have tested it myself after at least 4 weeks, or more as the soap warrants, because I would hate to give a friend a soap that might leave their skin dry or scalp itchy.

 

[narnia]

I tested the first one after a day and liked it from the start (because I was so anxious to try it). The second one, I tested 4 days later.
I thought that castor oil was conditioning....is it not? Is it for bubbles only? So castor oil can make it drying?

Could the changes in the shea butter and OO have made a diff as well?

 

[McGraysoldtowngifts]

All that I have read so far is that you should not use CP/HP soap right after it is cut. Maybe this could be why your Scalp is itching could the bars still have a High Lye content in them?. All posts so far have stated at least a 4 - 6 week cure time for most of the soaps. Just throwing that out there not that I am an expert or anything just using my interweb logic


Todd

 

[narnia]

I waited 4 days after second batch was cut. I used first batch right after it was cut. So, I don't feel that it was a matter of time, but ingredients.

 

[hmlove1218]

IMO, there's entirely too much CO in both recipes for a shampoo. Most of the recipes I've seen have under 10% CO. I keep mine at 5%. Your hair does not need to be stripped of its oils.

Typically in shampoo bars, castor is between 10% and 15%, though I've seen some recipes with as much as 20%

In the second, you added cocoa butter and beeswax. I would personally leave out the beeswax because I don't want wax on my hair, but is there a possibility you're allergic or sensitive to either ingredient?

Also, have you checked ked your soap for zap? And please keep in mind that all soaps become milder with a good cure. A few days old soap will be completely different from the same recipe that's cured 4-6 weeks.

 

[narnia]

Yes. I tested for zap right after the cook. Kept my tongue on it for 5 seconds...no zap.

IMO, there's entirely too much CO in both recipes for a shampoo. Most of the recipes I've seen have under 10% CO. I keep mine at 5%. Your hair does not need to be stripped of its oils.

Typically in shampoo bars, castor is between 10% and 15%, though I've seen some recipes with as much as 20%

In the second, you added cocoa butter and beeswax. I would personally leave out the beeswax because I don't want wax on my hair, but is there a possibility you're allergic or sensitive to either ingredient?

Also, have you checked ked your soap for zap? And please keep in mind that all soaps become milder with a good cure. A few days old soap will be completely different from the same recipe that's cured 4-6 weeks.

I want this to be just as good for the body as for the hair....but is there such a thing?

So, if I reduce the CO and increase the castor, will it make lots of bubbles but less drying?

I don't think that I will be using the beeswax. I have to make the rest of the oils too hot keep the beeswax melted and I don't think it's good for combining with GM. So, I learned my lesson with that one.

I thought that cocoa butter was supposed to add
moisturizing?

 

[traderbren]

If you haven't already, there is an amazingly informative thread on Shampoo Bars that is worth the time to read. So much about hair needs is discussed and explained, and the recipe is a great recipe that works well as a body (or face) soap as well. Shampoo bars don't work for everyone. I keep my coconut oil way down on all my soaps because I find it drying. The recipe in the thread (Genny's shampoo bar) uses NO coconut oil.

Edit to try to link the thread:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=30946

 

[amd]

Have you read anything about OCM (oil cleansing method)? If you do a google search for it (or I think there is even a website oilcleansingmethod.com or something like that) they give a lot of good information about castor oil and skin types. From personal experience, my standard is 5% castor oil, unless I have a very high olive oil (more than 60%) than I may go 7-10% but never more than that. Castor oil is one of those things that "less is more".

 

[IrishLass]

Instead of comparing the conditioning/cleansing, etc.. numbers between the 2 formulas, take a look at their fatty acid profile numbers instead (i.e., lauric, myristic, ricinoleic, oleic, etc....). They will tell you more about the differences between your two formulas. The biggest differences take place with the oleic and ricinoleic acids, and also with the linolenic acid.

Your first batch has a combined 12% of linoleic and linolenic, both of which help a lot with conditioning. Your second batch has no linolenic at all and only 7% linoleic, compared to 4% and 8% respectively in your first.

Also, castor oil can be drying to some people. The fact that it is higher in your second batch may be a factor in how much drier it feels to you, especially since the oleic was less in that batch as compared to the first. To me, my skin feels oleic to be more conditioning than ricinoleic. It perchance may be the same with you.

I want this to be just as good for the body as for the hair....but is there such a thing?

To me, Genny's shampoo bar recipe that she posted on the forum fits the bill.


IrishLass

 

[narnia]

Thank you, traderbren and amd!

Instead of comparing the conditioning/cleansing, etc.. numbers between the 2 formulas, take a look at their fatty acid profile numbers instead (i.e., lauric, myristic, ricinoleic, oleic, etc....). They will tell you more about the differences between your two formulas. The biggest differences take place with the oleic and ricinoleic acids, and also with the linolenic acid.

Your first batch has a combined 12% of linoleic and linolenic, both of which help a lot with conditioning. Your second batch has no linolenic at all and only 7% linoleic, compared to 4% and 8% respectively in your first.

Also, castor oil can be drying to some people. The fact that it is higher in your second batch may be a factor in how much drier it feels to you, especially since the oleic was less in that batch as compared to the first. To me, my skin feels oleic to be more conditioning than ricinoleic. It perchance may be the same with you.




To me, Genny's shampoo bar recipe that she posted on the forum fits the bill.


IrishLass

OMGosh!!!! :shock: You guys are chemists!!! I had noooooooooooooooo idea how scientific soap making was!!!!! Good thing I liked chemistry in school! Now, I will have to roll up my sleeves and set about learning ALL these things!!!

So, now having looked up which ingredients had which FA, I am deducing that the reduction of castor oil and the addition of the flax oil made it more conditioning?

 

[Susie]

I hate to beat a dead horse, here, but you still need to wait 4-6 weeks before using your soap. The difference between a week old (or less) soap, and a properly cured one is HUGE.

I have to agree on the too much CO, also.

 

[lenarenee]

I hate to beat a dead horse, here, but you still need to wait 4-6 weeks before using your soap. The difference between a week old (or less) soap, and a properly cured one is HUGE.

Yes, thank you, a thousand times yes! If you do a blind washing test with a 4 day old soap, then the same bar 6 weeks later you'll never guess they were the same recipe.

 

[coffeetime]

I personally find cocoa butter in soap too cleansing. Even at 10% it left my skin tight-feeling. So I replaced it with avocado oil and it's much nicer.

 

[IrishLass]

OMGosh!!!! :shock: You guys are chemists!!! I had noooooooooooooooo idea how scientific soap making was!!!!! Good thing I liked chemistry in school! Now, I will have to roll up my sleeves and set about learning ALL these things!!!

Some of us here are actual chemists, but not me....unless you broaden the term to include amateur kitchen chemists. lol I'm just a soap-making enthusiast who has been avidly/obsessively making soap on a consistent basis for a little over 10 years now. But you are correct- soap-making is all about the chemistry. I've actually learned more about chemistry through soap-making that I ever learned in school. For what it's worth, I hated chemistry in school. Go figure! lol

I agree 100% with Susie and Lenarenee- don't judge your soap until at least 4 to 6 weeks have gone by. During the weeks that it is curing and reacting with the CO2 in the air, several micro-reactions are going on inside the soap's crystalline matrix that help to make it lather better and become more mild, etc.. That fact truly can't be stressed strongly enough.


IrishLass

 

[narnia]

Yes, thank you, a thousand times yes! If you do a blind washing test with a 4 day old soap, then the same bar 6 weeks later you'll never guess they were the same recipe.

Really?! But, if it has too much CO, it will still be drying, won't it, regardless of how long time has
passed?

I personally find cocoa butter in soap too cleansing. Even at 10% it left my skin tight-feeling. So I replaced it with avocado oil and it's much nicer.

I thought that cocoa butter was supposed to be conditioning....

 

[kchaystack]

I thought that cocoa butter was supposed to be conditioning....

Everyone's skin reacts differently to saponified oils. There are guidelines, but really very few rules.

Also, soap does not condition. It cleans. It does not moisturize or nourish. It cleanses. Some soap cleanses better than others, stripping more oils from your skin.

This is why you have to experiment on your own. No one can hand you a soap recipe and guarantee everyone will react to it the same way.

 

[narnia]

If you haven't already, there is an amazingly informative thread on Shampoo Bars that is worth the time to read. So much about hair needs is discussed and explained, and the recipe is a great recipe that works well as a body (or face) soap as well. Shampoo bars don't work for everyone. I keep my coconut oil way down on all my soaps because I find it drying. The recipe in the thread (Genny's shampoo bar) uses NO coconut oil.

Edit to try to link the thread:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=30946

Thank you soooooo much!!! I read a good part of that loooooong thread!! I tweaked her recipe slightly and added 5% coconut oil. I have a small test batch in my crockpot even as I type!

I am learning so much and am very excited to try this new recipe! If I liked my first one, I think I will LOVE this one (Genny's)!

My life has changed so much!! I never knew all that I would be doing when we bought 2 milk goats!! Now, I am making goat cheese and GM soap! :mrgreen:

 

[penelopejane]

Genny's recipe is a CP soap not a HP one.

 

[Susie]

CP and HP have the same ingredients, and the same cure time. It really does not make any difference which way it is made. No matter how often the people on the internet say so.