Pine Tar Soap

[anthony05]

Hello guys!!
I need your opinion about my plan to make pine tar soap.
I accidentally ordered 'pine tar oil labelled product' but then I asked the seller and he said it was derived from gum rosin (made from pine resin).
The tar smell a little bit burnt and has some pine notes. The color is brown, definitely much lighter than usual pine tar. It's really sticky and I suspect it contains a lot of turpentine because it was made from resin.
I don't know is this tar safe and good for eczema or toxic.
Please drop your opinion bellow, thank you so much

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Hi Anthony and Welcome!

It looks fine to me. Pine Tar soap has been discussed many times here. Use the Search icon (magnifying glass at the top right of this page) for topics that have been discussed before.

When you have time, please take a moment to go to the Introduction Forum and tell us a little about yourself, especially your Soapmaking experience and anything else you care to share. This will make it easier for us to help you on your Soapy Journey and, if you're lucky, find a few soapy friends near you.

 

[anthony05]

Hi Zany!
Thanks for your help mate!!
I have introduced my self in introduction forum
Can't wait to find new friends and learn more about soap making!!

Btw Zany, after I read a lot of threads, gum rosin seems to be safe but I still don't know about its healing property compared to pine tar.
Do you have any suggestions about the recipe, can I replace this 'gum rosin tar oil' to pine tar oil?
Btw I plan to make this soap for my grandma because she has eczema and allergies.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I've not looked deep in to it (the pine tar that I bought was pine tar) so bear in mind that what I am about to type is just my thought process working through

But thinking about it logically - what produces the tar when they make "normal" pine tar? Why do we not see much willow tar? Because pine is a resinous tree and the resin becomes the tar. It's not the wood itself so much as the resin in the wood. So if you take the resin out of the tree and then use that to make pine tar.......as Rick would say "that sounds like making pine tar with extra steps"

To summarize - I am not an expert on it, but if they made the pine tar from the resin but took the resin out of the wood instead of leaving it in there, isn't it pretty similar? Of course, it's not the same because the wood is missing, but is that a key ingredient in what makes pine tar beneficial in the way we use it?

 

[anthony05]

Thank youu for your answer
Well I guess I need to experiment by myself to find out
Fyi, I live in Indonesia which is known for one of the biggest producing gum rosin country, maybe they made pine tar from gum rosin because it's widely available.
Again, thank you for your opinion, I'm now pretty confident to try making pine tar soap

 

[DeeAnna]

What I think you may have is a mixture of pine tar mixed with what's called "tall oil" in English. Tall oil is a crude liquid type of resin (also called rosin or colophony). The mixture also probably contains a small percentage of turpentine (pine EO).

I've made pine tar soap from this kind of pine tar and tall oil blend. It will cause the batter to accelerate and heat up at least as quickly (or even faster) than pine tar, because resin/rosin reacts even faster and harder with lye than normal pine tar does.

So ... be aware that a volcano might be more likely. Not saying it will, just that it's more likely. Keep your ingredients on the cool side and be prepared to stir the batter with a spatula or whisk to control the batter if it starts to expand (volcano). If the batter does want to volcano, I'd instantly switch to a hot process method -- watch it like a hawk, keep stirring it to keep the expansion to a minimum, and let the soap cook in the pot until the chemical reaction settles down.

I don't remotely have a clue whether this mixture has any benefits for skin problems like "official" pine tar supposedly does. There's no scientific proof that official pine tar does anything for skin problems, and there's even less information about your pine tar oil. This is a mystery no one here can answer.

Tar can be made from many plant-based materials including pine, birch, juniper, coal, peat, etc. -- anything with enough resins to make it worth the trouble to make the tar.

Pine tar is the most common type of tar that people commonly have access to, but I know some people have mentioned birch and juniper tars -- I gather these are made in Scandinavian countries as specialty items. Peat is not very common in most parts of the world either, so peat tar will be another specialty product. Coal tar, which is still made, has fallen out of favor for personal care products so it is not as easy for small scale makers like us to find.

Tar is produced by pyrolysis, which is a method of heating carbon-based, resinous material in the absence of oxygen. Without oxygen, the carbon-based material does not burn; instead, it produces flammable gases similar to natural gas, the liquid resins drip out of the material and drain away, and the remaining solids that don't become gases or liquids are converted into charcoal.

 

[anthony05]

Wow that is definitely a lot of information!
Thank you so much Anna☺
You are right, I recently asked the seller and then he said that the pine tar is a blend from melted gum rosin and other additives that he didn't want to specify (the additives still derived from pine). As you have said, it maybe contains turpentine.

Btw thank you for giving me tips about hot process. I will prepare my stove and double boiler in case it exploded

Can I ask you one more? I am worry my soap will turned out either too sticky or too drying on skin. I'm planning to use 12% pine tar. Since pine tar is super sticky, I actually don't have any idea how the pine tar will affect the final soap, is it the same as superfatting the soap with 12% oil?

So here's how I plan my recipe for CP pine tar soap:
35% olive oil
20% coconut oil
15% palm oil
8% cocoa butter
5% castor oil
5% canola oil
12% pine tar oil blend

6% superfat
2:1 water to lye ratio

How do you think about it?

 

[DeeAnna]

You say you've introduced yourself, but I'm not seeing an introduction thread started by you in the intro forum and I didn't take the time to see if you'd introduced yourself in someone else's thread. So you will have to pardon me since I do not know if you're an experienced soaper or a beginner.

If you're a new soap maker, I don't recommend making pine tar soap right off the bat.

No, you can't think of pine tar as just a superfat.

Yes, PT is sticky in the can, but that doesn't mean it's sticky in the soap. If you use a low to moderate amount of PT -- say 5% to 15% -- in a recipe that otherwise makes decently long lasting, firm soap, adding the PT will make the soap somewhat shorter lived and perhaps slightly softer, but in my experience it has never made the soap goopy soft or sticky.

Keep the superfat low to moderate in your calculations -- 6% is more than I'd choose to use. I'd be more inclined to set the superfat at 2-3%.

As far as the recipe, if you've used this basic recipe without PT in the past and you like the soap, it should be fine with PT. More: Pine tar soap | Soapy Stuff

 

[anthony05]

I'm sorry about that Anna, here's the Introduction. I already posted yesterday, but I don't know why it took a lot of time to be uploaded, maybe some verification issues because I'm new member.

Yes, I am a new soap maker. I have made only several batches, but so far all of the batches turned out pretty great. I have made soap with pretty similar recipe to the CP pine tar that I posted and I liked it. In my last batch I use a little bit more coconut, olive, and cocoa butter because there are no pine tar.

Also, thank you for the suggestion to lower the superfat content.

 

[anthony05]

Hi guys, can you help me?
Why my soap batter split after I put that into the mold?

Edit:
Thank God, I hot process that and finally the batter come together and fully gelled
I believe there is some false trace because the cocoa butter solidified before it fully traced

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Can you confirm that the recipe is exactly as you described above? What sort of temperature did you mix to? Did you hot process it or not? Did it seize up on you?

Let us know the run of events (especially with something which isn't always an easy oil to soap with like pine tar) to help with the troubleshooting

 

[anthony05]

Yes, I used the same recipe as I have mentioned above with 3% superfat.
I mixed all the oil without pine tar, then added the lye, I stirred until almost trace, then I poured the pine tar and stir.
The mixture instantly thicken (but still not trace) then turned out gritty.
Fortunately, I was still able to stir the soap batter on a stove until fully gelled and emulsified.
Thank you for your caring btw

 

[biofm]

You may have to cut your pine oil loading from 12% to 3-4%. You will still get the pine smell in your soap.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

You may have to cut your pine oil loading from 12% to 3-4%. You will still get the pine smell in your soap.

It's less about the smell, more about the skin benefits of pine tar oil. It's not a pine essential oil or anything.

 

[anthony05]

Yes, you are right!
Pine tar doesn't have any fatty acid like other oil, also differ from pine oil.
Some people use pine tar soap to treat eczema or psoriasis, even though it seems sceptical. I personally want to make pine tar soap for my grandma because she has eczema.

 

[DeeAnna]

A "gritty" appearance is normal for a pine tar soap right when the soap batter is becoming very thick. That's just how pine tar affects the soap. The ideal time to pour the batter into the mold is in the brief moment immediately before the batter looks obviously gritty.

As far as the advice to drop the percentage of pine tar -- sure, a person can use less if you want, but I don't think that's strictly necessary. Using 10-15% pine tar is not an excessive amount, based on how I and others make PT soap.

The cracks as well as the liquid on top of your soap will happen if the soap gets unusually hot as it saponifies. When soap overheats, it expands. If it expands far enough, the top of the soap will crack.

And soap can also separate due from overheating. In this case, liquid collects on the surface and sometimes inside the soap. Your use of the oil mixture may have made it more likely this soap could separate -- but that's just a guess, since I've never used the Pine Tar Oil you're using.

Overheating doesn't always happen with PT soap, but it is likely enough to happen that I watch it more carefully than the other types of soap I make.

If the starting temperature of your soap batter is warmer than necessary, the chance of overheating and cracking are more likely than if the starting soap batter is cooler.

If you want to minimize the cracking, set the mold on something (cans, pieces of wood, etc.) so there is air beneath the mold and let a fan blow room air over all of the mold. That will help.

 

[anthony05]

Thank you for your explanation Anna
So far my soap is looking great, no explosion or cracking because I decide to hot process the soap since the batter gritty and splitting
The batter obviously get very hot in sudden. I knew something was wrong when I saw oil started dripping out of my mold. The batter didn't fully trace at that moment. Thank God, I remember your suggestion to hot process if the batter thicken too quickly.
The hot process itself didn't take too long since the saponification generate a lot of heat, it only took around 2 minutes then the soap batter fully emulsified and gelled.

 

[Zing]

Welcome to the forum! Pretty gutsy to tackle pine tar soap. It's on my bucket list.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I remember the first time, YEARS ago, when I first made Pine Tar Soap. I made a batch for my mom and her cronies at the retirement community where she lived. I used 20%, the so-called optimum, most effective rate. I followed the directions. I read that once added, it would trace in 27 seconds! And it did! LOL So, be ready.

I didn't know my little trick of setting the timer for 5 minutes and walking away at that time or I coulda done a better pour. But it molded up just fine. Thinking back, I may have rebatched it for a smoother finish (recovering perfectionist here ).

ETA: I just found this in my Files: Pine Tar Soap TIPS & TECHNIQUE

 

[SirSoapsAlot]

Yes, I used the same recipe as I have mentioned above with 3% superfat.
I mixed all the oil without pine tar, then added the lye, I stirred until almost trace, then I poured the pine tar and stir.
The mixture instantly thicken (but still not trace) then turned out gritty.
Fortunately, I was still able to stir the soap batter on a stove until fully gelled and emulsified.
Thank you for your caring btw

I am no expert as I've only made pine tar soap once, but I am wondering if you added the pine tar straight out of the container or did you heat it up. The recipe I worked off of recommended heating the tar with the oils which I did and that allowed it become very fluid and mix together easier I think. I wonder if this could have affected you not reaching a trace. It should trace quickly just stirring. You could also try chilling the soap if you think it overheated, but make sure there is a tray of something under it in the fridge to avert any disasters. Does anyone else put the tar in hot or cold?