PH help!!

[vBlake]

HEY everyone! So I've been making soaps now for about a year and have decided to start a small side business making soaps. I have recently came across some questions that I need "better" answers for. My questions are about safeness and ending PH of cured soap bars.

I'm having some concerns from one potential retailer. He started off loveing the different soaps but then got some in his eyes and mentioned it burned really bad... as all soaps do. Then he said his wife felt like her skin was dried out... argh!! His questions were regarding the end PH of the bar soap. Mind you he is a pharmacist I have told him that there is not a real good PH test for bar soap other than the zap test. Well that seems a bit too... unscientific for him. I got Some pool test strips... I know not the best, i get it, but it was what I had on hand. So I did two of my soaps and one bar I got from a soap making supply house. From a 20 year soaping veteran!! All three test strips were identical in their final reading. The ending PH was at about 8.4

Soap background
Oils: Tallow, olive oil, coconut, soybean, and castor
Saponified at 6%
Essential oils are added at 1% lower than guidelines suggest.
Other ingredients: French green clay


Am I way off? What are your soaps PH after a full cure?

Any direction would be awesome!!

 

[DeeAnna]

Yes, you're way off. We have this discussion about pH regularly. Why don't you check out some of these threads first?

https://www.google.com/search?q=pH+test+site:soapmakingforum.com

 

[vBlake]

I tried looking for some but to no avail. Thank you!!

Yes, you're way off. We have this discussion about pH regularly. Why don't you check out some of these threads first?

https://www.google.com/search?q=pH+test+site:soapmakingforum.com

Hey DeeAnna,

To further clarify. How am I way off?

I may have not been clear before... I realize the zap test and PH are different test. The question I was looking for was more on the lines of if my bars zap test fine and run a PH of 8.5 am I way off. You said yes. But from those forums Soap that does not zap and fall into a zone of 8-10 are safe....

Are you saying my soap is way off or my terminology?

 

[Susie]

Your soap is not going to be an 8.4 pH. Look for it to be more like 9-10. That is what is way off. Did you even dilute the soap before taking the measurement?

If your soap is zapless, then it has no free lye. Which is what the concern is.

I would look to the clay as the cause for the drying. (Assuming that you listed the oils in the order of highest quantity to lowest quantity, and that the coconut oil is less than 20%.)

 

[vBlake]

Your soap is not going to be an 8.4 pH. Look for it to be more like 9-10. That is what is way off. Did you even dilute the soap before taking the measurement?

If your soap is zapless, then it has no free lye. Which is what the concern is.

I would look to the clay as the cause for the drying. (Assuming that you listed the oils in the order of highest quantity to lowest quantity, and that the coconut oil is less than 20%.)

Thanks!!

In regards to diluting it... I lathered up with as little water as I could as to not dilute the test strip too much but I had enough soapy, watery, lather to get a good reading on the strip.

Yes the oils were listed in order of amounts used in the bar. And yes the Coconut is at 19%

----------------------------

So to recap, I feel that the absence of Lye is obviously a good thing . my PH whatever it may be (8-10) falls within a good, safe range.

Maybe look into reducing Clay usage rates.

 

[earlene]

First off, I'd say you may need to educate your customer (the pharmacist). Yeah, I know, I worked with doctors; they don't all take 'education' well from those of us without a degree equal to or higher than their own. So take that suggestion as tongue-in-cheek.

First, why was he washing his eyes with soap? Who does that? Do you? I certainly don't. You can't make pH neutral soap. That's the education he needs. Maybe he doesn't know that. Perhaps he expects your soap to be a detergent bar or a syndet bar. You can educate him on the difference between the two.

Perhaps you can refer him to something written by Dr. Kevin Dunn, who wrote Scientific Soapmaking and does ongoing scientific studies on soapmaking stuff. If you have a copy of his book, show him section 4.4 on pages 76 & 77, which address the tongue test and the pH of true soap. If he wants more complex detail, section 9.4 starting on page 167 goes into more detail about the pH of true soap at deeper mathematical and chemical level that may feed his analytical side.

You might find this video interesting: Kevin Dunn on the effect of pH on soap and detergent video on youtube. [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwB8QPBbc4g[/ame]

But I would be concerned about his wife's experience with the soap making her skin feel dry. Some people have no problem with high CO content in soap, while others find it very drying. Same for palm oil and perhaps babassu oil in high amounts in soap. So it may just be that she needs a different formula. Soap is not a 'one size fits all' kind of thing. For me it's not so much about how much superfat as it is about the combination of oils in the formula. With a good-for-me formula, the superfat can be quite low and it's still a nice smooth almost moisturizing kind of thing. I know soap doesn't 'moisturize', but when soap does not dry my skin out, it's hard to come up with a more appropriate term. When someone points me toward a better term, I'd be happy to add it to my repertoire. Non-drying is a fairly good term, I suppose, but I tend to like words that are positive rather than containing a negative in their use. To me 'non' is negative, even when it is negating the word 'drying'.

ETA: I just noticed the clay, so yes, that might be it if your CO is not a large percentage. Even so, some folks skin seem to prefer soap with a really low percentage of cleansing oil.

Oh, and I don't test pH anymore. Totally unreliable, those test strips. I judge my soap based on my skin's reaction to it with prolonged use (given that it has been well cured and was zap-free of course.)

 

[Susie]

^^^What Earlene said!

To even be able to ballpark the pH, you have to have a diluted soap. I think it is 1:99 ratio, or maybe 1:100. But you really aren't going to be able to get a correct reading, as those strips are notoriously incorrect when reading salts. And soap is an alkaline salt.

 

[vBlake]

First off, I'd say you may need to educate your customer (the pharmacist). Yeah, I know, I worked with doctors; they don't all take 'education' well from those of us without a degree equal to or higher than their own. So take that suggestion as tongue-in-cheek.

First, why was he washing his eyes with soap? Who does that? Do you? I certainly don't. You can't make pH neutral soap. That's the education he needsbetween the two.

Perhaps you can refer him to something written by Dr. Kevin Dunn, who wrote Scientific Soapmaking and does ongoing scientific studies on soapmaking stuff. If you have a copy of his book, show him section 4.4 on pages 76 & 77, which address the tongue test and the pH of true soap.

So two things are happening as I read your post...

1. I slowly start clapping my hands and stand up
2. And start a loud standing Ovation!!

This was a wonderful response to this thread. You and @susie have been super helpful. This is the type answer I was looking for, that "better" answer I needed.

Thank you for being an amazing contributor. ��

^^^What Earlene said!

To even be able to ballpark the pH, you have to have a diluted soap. I think it is 1:99 ratio, or maybe 1:100. But you really aren't going to be able to get a correct reading, as those strips are notoriously incorrect when reading salts. And soap is an alkaline salt.

Again thank you for your information. I really do appreciate the help. I'm also saluting you today!!! Thanks for being a great contributor!!


I'm still standing up clapping!! ... all before coffee and before 5:06am

 

[DeeAnna]

pH test strips, especially the cheap pool test strips, routinely UNDER report the actual pH of soap. You can expect 1 to 2 pH units lower.

Also "I lathered up with as little water as I could as to not dilute the test strip too much" is not the right method. The pH measurement by definition is the amount of hydrogen ions in a DILUTE solution.

Even if you don't take a chemist's view of measuring pH properly, look at it this way -- soap is used in a highly diluted form when you wash. You want to replicate the conditions that a person's skin sees when washing. That jives with the fact that the pH of soap in concentrated form is going to read lower than the true pH of the soap when the pH is measured properly. So dilute it to do it right.

http://www.modernsoapmaking.com/how-to-ph-test-handmade-soap/
http://alaiynab.blogspot.com/2015/05/ph-testing-of-liquid-soap-and-lowering.html

And that brings me to the discussion of whether pH is really the test that definitively proves whether a soap is skin safe or not. It's not. But the threads in the Google search I provided in my earlier post will cover that topic.

 

[toxikon]

There are some smart cookies on this site. :mrgreen:

If the pH question ever came up for me, I'd probably just say something like "All lye-based soaps are naturally alkaline and have a pH of around 9-10. As long as there is no leftover lye in the soap, they are completely safe to use after a good cure."

And yes, sir... typically, most soaps, whether lye-based or syndet, will make your eyes sting if you get it in them. :roll:

 

[vBlake]

****This message has been deleted by SMF Modmin Team. Reason: Violation of forum rule #1 (personal attacks and insults are not permitted or tolerated).****

 

[Millie]

****Embeded quote by vBlake has been deleted by SMF Modmin Team****

Bullying is not welcome here. Apologies are in order.

P.s. If you would like to read the best post in the history of the forum (to my knowledge) you can read it in this thread - post 51 - and then you might want to read the whole thread.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=35831&page=6

P.p.s. Wow, this amazing person took the time to answer your question (a question she has patiently answered numerous times). That is something to be greatful for.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I often think of that scene in Armageddon when the general snaps at Quincy and the NASA chief points out that his opinion is indeed worth hearing.

Posts from DeeAnna are gold. Even if her no-nonsense approach isn't to your taste, you will do yourself no favours by putting her off replying to any questions that you might have.

 

[DeeAnna]

You have been asking technical questions and I have given you technical, direct answers that, while brief, have taken a LOT more time and thought for me to write than it took you to ask. If my being brief and direct translates in your brain to my being offensive, I can't stop you from thinking what you want to think. But that is no excuse for offensive language -- don't inflict this kind of behavior on the group at large again. Either say what you need to say to me by PM or knock it off ... but don't behave this way in public.

 

[Kittish]

****Embeded quote by vBlake has been deleted by SMF Modmin Team****

You're right on several counts. There are distinct types of people that hang out on web forums, and you're placing yourself squarely into one of the 'undesirable' types. Personal attacks are completely uncalled for, especially when all she did was answer your question. YOU have started slinging around personal epithets, and frankly, I'm pretty much inclined to ignore anything you say or post from this point forward because your attitude has completely negated any basic respect I might have had for you as a fellow person. I trimmed your direct insults out of the quote, but they are entirely inappropriate for this or any other public space, whether virtual or real life. You owe pretty much everyone here, but especially Deeanna, a sincere apology. Of course, being a realist, I fully expect what you'll actually do is flounce since you're being called out for your unacceptable behavior.

 

[IrishLass]

vBlake, your post has been deleted as it is in violation of SMF board rule #1. Personal attacks and insults are not tolerated or permitted.

You have been given excellent advice in regards to the relationship between pH and lye-based soap. If I were to have responded to your questions in this thread, I would have answered with the same information as was given. Whether you take or leave the advice given is up to you, but it is spot-on, it was graciously supplied in a spirit of helpfulness, and was in no way deserving of the insulting response.

Please read our forum rules, especially rule #1.


This thread is now closed.