Palm Oil
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If you use it for coloring, a little bit goes a LONG way. But as a substitute for palm, I suggest you get your money back. That will be a stinky bar of soapy regret that will stain wash rags and tubs of you soap with it like regular refined palm. YOu could also cook with it, if it is a cooking oil.
For this soap the recipe was 20% palm, and I split the batter before I added the palm oils, then added regular palm oil to half of it and red palm to the other half (then some of the white got charcoal). I wouldn't use more than that (that orange part is then 20% red palm, or 10% of the total oils), but its nice for a natural color.
OK soap fans, I did a little research on Palm oil, and it's no wonder that it is hard to get for us as consumers. This is what I found, now I will never use it again, and not add to the problem we as a nation and world are experiencing! If we can believe what I found on the internet.
"Not only is Palm Oil bad for the environment, and a major cause of climate change, but it is also the leading cause of orangutan extinction. Every year it is estimated that between 1,000 to 5,000 orangutans are killed in Palm Oil concessions. That is a significant portion of the wild orangutan population which is lost–without fail–every single year".
"Not only is Palm Oil bad for the environment, and a major cause of climate change, but it is also the leading cause of orangutan extinction. Every year it is estimated that between 1,000 to 5,000 orangutans are killed in Palm Oil concessions. That is a significant portion of the wild orangutan population which is lost–without fail–every single year".
Oh My Goodness, here we go again. Sorry this is quite old news and has been heavily discussed. Just think about one little thing, even though it is usually big companies behind it, the locals get jobs and put food on their tables for their children. Who or what is more important... Also many are doing their best to be sustainable and their own countries use more palm than we do. Our tiny drop in the bucket will not do much and we are the least users. Jobs are created, harvesting, refining, packaging etc etc. Well maybe I added a few more than 1 thing, but people have to come first and we Cannot control every country
Also palm is not hard to find here, almost any restaurant and walmart carry palm shortening which is homogenized palm oil. I use palm oil and feel good someone had/has a job because of it.
Saponificarian
Well-Known Member
We don't kill Orangutans in Nigeria and I am sure there are other palm producing countries that are not killing Orangutans and not contributing to climate change. I am not making excuses for those that are but I believe people should look at the whole picture and not a pick a part and decide it's greater than the sum of the whole.
I can tell you many families will be in dire straits here if we don't export palm oil and not use palm. Palm oil for us is as important as eggs for you. It's the oil 95% of the population cook with here. Both the red Palm oil and the refined Palm Olein. If you have ever used Black Soap from Africa, you have likely used Palm oil because some Ose Dudu Soapers use Red Palm oil in their Black Soap.
There was a time I was concerned about the issue too when I was importing RBDW palm oil from the U.K. Because I was not sure where it was coming from (Nigeria wasn't RBDW red palm oil on serious commercial scale until late last year) but now that we do, I understand it better because I see how a dip in market can mean some families can't eat even 2 times a day or their children can't afford school fees.
I can tell you the average Oil palm farmer here is not rolling in millions of dollars they are farming to survive.
P.S: Palm oil should not smell bad, if it's smelling off, it is off. It has a characteristic smell almost like Tamanu but not stinky bad.
I can tell you many families will be in dire straits here if we don't export palm oil and not use palm. Palm oil for us is as important as eggs for you. It's the oil 95% of the population cook with here. Both the red Palm oil and the refined Palm Olein. If you have ever used Black Soap from Africa, you have likely used Palm oil because some Ose Dudu Soapers use Red Palm oil in their Black Soap.
There was a time I was concerned about the issue too when I was importing RBDW palm oil from the U.K. Because I was not sure where it was coming from (Nigeria wasn't RBDW red palm oil on serious commercial scale until late last year) but now that we do, I understand it better because I see how a dip in market can mean some families can't eat even 2 times a day or their children can't afford school fees.
I can tell you the average Oil palm farmer here is not rolling in millions of dollars they are farming to survive.
P.S: Palm oil should not smell bad, if it's smelling off, it is off. It has a characteristic smell almost like Tamanu but not stinky bad.
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soaperwoman
Active Member
Red palm oil is inferior, don't bother, amazon has nice inexpensive palm oil. Don't want to kill orangatans then buy palm oil from fair trade, sustainable harvest farms, which will be more expensive. Also not to sound like I am making and excuse but much of the world uses palm oil for cooking and our little soap industry accounts for a thimbleful of the palm consumption so don't lose sleep over it. Just be as sensitive to the problem as possible. I use palm oil in maybe 30% of my soaps, all sustainably harvested from non- orangatan environments. Do your research.
Sorry Cmaaha didn't mean to ruffle your feathers I did not know this had been discussed before. I have only been making soap for about 2 months now and haven't had time to read all of the posts about it.
Never dawned on me to go a restaurant to buy my supplies but maybe I should try that. Walmart; don't particularly like to shop there.
Never dawned on me to go a restaurant to buy my supplies but maybe I should try that. Walmart; don't particularly like to shop there.
I am waiting for Australia to catch up and produce local (organic) palm oil.
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I really don't think you ruffled her feathers, but more along the lines of she was simply trying to help you understand the bigger picture. Also, I may be wrong here, but I think she meant restaurant supply stores.
As for me... I'm able to purchase sustainable palm oil online and I don't understand the argument against using it.
SunRiseArts
Well-Known Member
I love red palm for some recipes, but warning, it will stain everything you use, and is so oily is hard to clean. I only use disposable molds (like milk cartons) when I use it. My oldest son loves soap made with the red palm butter.
However, does it has the same sap value than regular palm oil?. I think it does not, but I would need to double check.
If you are not against animal fats, you can substitute it for lard. I learned that in this forum, and I am super grateful.
However, does it has the same sap value than regular palm oil?. I think it does not, but I would need to double check.
If you are not against animal fats, you can substitute it for lard. I learned that in this forum, and I am super grateful.
LilyJo
Well-Known Member
I've had a love/hate relationship with palm and tbh some of the points raised here in the past have caused me to question my earlier stance.
As far as I know, in the west we consume vast quantities of palm and the cultivation of that in some countries is having a detrimental affect on wildlife, including orangutans. This isnt the case for all palm as some is farmed elsewhere. The amount of palm used by the US and elsewhere for foodstuffs is enormous and the fact that palm is often a hidden ingredient in commercial beauty products means it is in almost everything.
Speaking to the FD of one of the large soap makers a while back he advised me that their supply chain process had determined that using the RSPO accredition is pointless as unless the products are segregated at all stages of the production process there will inevitably be some cross contamination. Researching it later I also found a number of questions raised about the ethics of RSPO which led me to dismiss that as an option
However, we have always had the palm free stance for our soap and our bath products but in the last few months I have had to question my own hypocrisy. Yes I love being able to label things as 'palm free' but how can I justify that when so many food products contain palm and I am not about to stop buying them?
For me, right now, unless someone is prepared for the hard slog of going palm free in all areas of their life (food, beauty, pet food, convenience foods) its hard to justify the no plam stance, unless its for label appeal only.
As far as I know, in the west we consume vast quantities of palm and the cultivation of that in some countries is having a detrimental affect on wildlife, including orangutans. This isnt the case for all palm as some is farmed elsewhere. The amount of palm used by the US and elsewhere for foodstuffs is enormous and the fact that palm is often a hidden ingredient in commercial beauty products means it is in almost everything.
Speaking to the FD of one of the large soap makers a while back he advised me that their supply chain process had determined that using the RSPO accredition is pointless as unless the products are segregated at all stages of the production process there will inevitably be some cross contamination. Researching it later I also found a number of questions raised about the ethics of RSPO which led me to dismiss that as an option
However, we have always had the palm free stance for our soap and our bath products but in the last few months I have had to question my own hypocrisy. Yes I love being able to label things as 'palm free' but how can I justify that when so many food products contain palm and I am not about to stop buying them?
For me, right now, unless someone is prepared for the hard slog of going palm free in all areas of their life (food, beauty, pet food, convenience foods) its hard to justify the no plam stance, unless its for label appeal only.
penelopejane
Well-Known Member
^^^ I am palm free in all aspects of my life. Firstly because I am highly allergic to it but then because of orangutan habitat and environmental concerns. I don't think sustainable palm is "working" yet. But I feel so sorry for the tiny farmers who need the income.
There has been a large swing away from palm oil in Australia so much so that the big supermarkets have started advertising that everything name branded in the shop will go to sustainable palm soon (a lot already have converted)
A lot of the handmade soap here is palm oil free. Maybe to differentiate them from the "handmade commercial" stuff in the supermarket.
Personally I think each to their own!
There has been a large swing away from palm oil in Australia so much so that the big supermarkets have started advertising that everything name branded in the shop will go to sustainable palm soon (a lot already have converted)
A lot of the handmade soap here is palm oil free. Maybe to differentiate them from the "handmade commercial" stuff in the supermarket.
Personally I think each to their own!
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I just found this article on palm oil. http://www.simedarby.com/upload/Palm_Oil_Facts_and_Figures.pdf Check out the Poverty Alleviation section. The article is from 2014 so not to long ago
You did not ruffle my feathers. We all have to make our choices, and I made mine a long time ago. Also people just do think about the jobs it creates, not just the direct harvesting of the oil. Think about the ship captain and crew, office staff, etc then the fuel industry to get this product where it goes and do not forget the truckers, it just keeps going creating jobs
anjouwu
obsessed
I wish I had read the advice about red palm oil before using a 17oz jar in a batch. Not only did it completely stain my molds, but the resulting soap bled so badly I just threw it all out. Live and learn, I guess!
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Palm oil is a very complex issue. Simply because they haven't been mentioned, I'm going to add these (but my knowledge is only of the Indonesia and Malaysia areas, not Africa):
Indigineous habitat is destroyed so palm plantations can be planted. Jobs created, income - yes. But the cost is increased crime, slavery/human trafficking (in terms of people being kidnapped, or forced to work), and habitat destruction that not only decimates animal population - which creates more problems (i.e. keeping harmful or prolific populations in check,etc.) but there's also the very simple fact that these tropical areas with large rainfall amounts have now lost the massive and varied root systems from the rainforests that keep the landscape solid. Palm trees in any amount can't even begin to replace that. Currently mudslides, flooding, etc., endanger and even wipeout entire villages. If palm farming continues at the pace it's going, these habitats will be transformed into a new environment that doesn't suit its location and environmental scientists can only guess at the severity of those consequences, but none of which are positive.
There is an environmental group trying to enlist the farmers and local leaders into cooperating and drafting environmental plans to preserve the local ecosystems, create sustainable farms in areas with low impact to necessary systems, and teaching farmers to safely hardscape the farming acres to protect from floods, mudslides, etc. But it costs money....and that's a whole other ball of wax.
(this info comes from first hand reports from my neighbor who's in the import business and travels for business in these areas)
The demand for palm grows every year.
Indigineous habitat is destroyed so palm plantations can be planted. Jobs created, income - yes. But the cost is increased crime, slavery/human trafficking (in terms of people being kidnapped, or forced to work), and habitat destruction that not only decimates animal population - which creates more problems (i.e. keeping harmful or prolific populations in check,etc.) but there's also the very simple fact that these tropical areas with large rainfall amounts have now lost the massive and varied root systems from the rainforests that keep the landscape solid. Palm trees in any amount can't even begin to replace that. Currently mudslides, flooding, etc., endanger and even wipeout entire villages. If palm farming continues at the pace it's going, these habitats will be transformed into a new environment that doesn't suit its location and environmental scientists can only guess at the severity of those consequences, but none of which are positive.
There is an environmental group trying to enlist the farmers and local leaders into cooperating and drafting environmental plans to preserve the local ecosystems, create sustainable farms in areas with low impact to necessary systems, and teaching farmers to safely hardscape the farming acres to protect from floods, mudslides, etc. But it costs money....and that's a whole other ball of wax.
(this info comes from first hand reports from my neighbor who's in the import business and travels for business in these areas)
The demand for palm grows every year.
BrewerGeorge
Well-Known Member
I think it's a strange sort of privilege that leads people in 1st world countries to condemn people in 3rd world countries for trying to make their land more supportive of their needs. North America didn't look like this when Europeans got here, folks. Everybody loves the buffalo, but nobody wants to "give back" Iowa or Kansas for their habitat - tearing down all the corn fields and malls and McMansions.
Improving land has been what mankind does since the beginning of time. That's what palm plantations are to the people planting them; they're improvements. It's sort of weird that the 1st World has only decided that it's a bad thing in the last 75 years or so - once they were "done" so to speak. At the very least it's condescending and patronizing to presume to tell the people in these areas that they aren't acting in their own best interest. Smacks of the rationale for good-old 19th Century Imperialism to me - simple natives don't know what's good for them.
Improving land has been what mankind does since the beginning of time. That's what palm plantations are to the people planting them; they're improvements. It's sort of weird that the 1st World has only decided that it's a bad thing in the last 75 years or so - once they were "done" so to speak. At the very least it's condescending and patronizing to presume to tell the people in these areas that they aren't acting in their own best interest. Smacks of the rationale for good-old 19th Century Imperialism to me - simple natives don't know what's good for them.
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If you're referring to the general western population who sustain from palm use because they've read a few mommy blogger sites that tell them to, then I agree. They haven't done their research and have just jumped aboard the newest environmental wagon.
However, if you're referring to scientists and civil engineers who are trying to work with Malaysia and Indonesia, then I can't agree. Their goal is to help them make it work - as in eat their cake (palm farms) and have it too (a healthy island to live on) and keeping as much autonomy in their business as possible without outside governments manipulating the score.
And certainly you'll find some of that imperialism, but there's also a great deal of "Look what we did to our lands, and the consequences. Please don't repeat our mistakes." Because once its gone, it's gone.
It's going to be 29C today, and it will be even hotter tomorrow, so I am going outside to garden before it gets too late.
This is a visual resource: http://www.cifor.org/map/atlas/
Their head office is located in Indonesia: https://www.cifor.org/about-cifor/
I used it to look at 2016 data.
To do this, click the "+/- map layer" at the top left of the map screen.
Change the check boxes to tick only this one: "Remaining Forest in 2016 and deforestation 1973-2016".
The areas deforested in 2016 show in purple. Old growth forest is dark green. You can zoom in to see what's nearby.
This is a visual resource: http://www.cifor.org/map/atlas/
Their head office is located in Indonesia: https://www.cifor.org/about-cifor/
I used it to look at 2016 data.
To do this, click the "+/- map layer" at the top left of the map screen.
Change the check boxes to tick only this one: "Remaining Forest in 2016 and deforestation 1973-2016".
The areas deforested in 2016 show in purple. Old growth forest is dark green. You can zoom in to see what's nearby.
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