Palm oil and Shea butter difference?

[Soapman Ryan]

I have noticed the properties of both these oils/butters are almost exact. Has anyone done a comparison using palm oil in one soap and shea butter in another? Can you tell a difference?
Here's pictures of each oil, showing how similar they are.

 

[lizflowers42]

Very interesting! I would think as long as you use a lye calc to make sure you have the appropriate lye amounts for the weight, it would be okay (provided you aren't allergic to Shea!). You can add salt to your water to increase hardness, and sugar can increase bubbles!

 

[new12soap]

personally I would find it very cost prohibitive to use shea in such high percentages, and not worth it to me for a wash-off product. I would rather put palm in soap for nearly identical characteristics and use shea in a nice leave-on lotion or cream.

 

[DeeAnna]

The numbers you are looking at have their uses, but I would not assume any two fats will produce similar soap, just because the hardness, bubbly, creamy, etc. numbers are somewhat similar. My husband and a body builder might weigh the same, but I suspect it might be inaccurate to decide the two guys are "similar" on the basis of their weights. :grin:

Asking your pardon in advance for trotting out even more numbers, here is more detailed info on these two:

The NaOH saponification number of Palm is running about 0.144; shea is about 0.131. The iodine number (a measure of polyunsaturation) is 48-58 for palm, 125-145 for shea, indicating shea has more unsaturated fatty acids. My notes show INS values of about 148 for palm and 112 for shea, more or less. All this means palm is going to saponify easier and give a harder, less conditioning bar.

Palmitic (saturated) and oleic (monosaturated) fatty acids predominate in the palm oil. Oleic and stearic (saturated) fatty acids are the main ones in shea. If you are concerned about DOS, both fats should work well, but palm gets the edge due to less polyunsaturation, looking back at the iodine numbers.

I don't have numbers for the unsaponifiable chemicals in the fats, but my understanding is that shea has quite a high % of unsaponifiables, which would add to the skin conditioning properties in a way that's not measured by the "conditioning, bubbly, creamy, etc." numbers.

Just sayin'. :grin:

 

[lizflowers42]

personally I would find it very cost prohibitive to use shea in such high percentages, and not worth it to me for a wash-off product. I would rather put palm in soap for nearly identical characteristics and use shea in a nice leave-on lotion or cream.

It depends though on the cost if you are looking at sustainable palm oil, it's a little bit of a hot button issue at the moment at how it can be harvested. Though, that probably could be said for all oils soapers use!

 

[Soapman Ryan]

It depends though on the cost if you are looking at sustainable palm oil, it's a little bit of a hot button issue at the moment at how it can be harvested. Though, that probably could be said for all oils soapers use!

When pricing oils on WSP, palm oil is really cheap ($2.37/lb) as with shea butter ($7.04/lb) or natural ($9.57/lb).
I'm just trying to develop a bath bar recipe with minimal oils for myself, so I don't have to keep spending $6.00/bar to have nice soap. Currently I use a brand from LEVEL naturals, but it seems absurd to have to use 12 oils for a smooth and moisturizing bar soap.
I have been looking at:
Coconut oil
Palm oil
and Olive oil
for the recipe.
The characteristics I want in the bar are:
A silky and creamy feel with just enough coconut oil to be able to see white lather and for it's cleaning ability. My dilemma is trying to determine if I need to purchase extra oils and what oils to add to this soap.

 

[judymoody]

I find that shea above 10% produces a lot of ashiness in my soap, especially if I don't gel. Palm does not.

I found your comparison very interesting. I had no idea that their profiles were so similar. Thanks for sharing.

Edited to add that my base recipe in descending order is OO, CO, PO, Castor and Cocoa Butter (the latter two at 5% each). It's a nicely balanced bar of soap and it doesn't cost much to produce.

 

[mel z]

Looking at the ingredient list for one of Level Naturals, it is an all veggie oil soap.

"Saponified Coconut Oil, Saponified Soybean Oil, Saponified Sunflower Seed Oil, Purified Water, Saponified Palm Fruit Oil, Saponified Olive Fruit Oil, Saponified Castor Seed Oil, Saponified Safflower Oil, Saponified Rapeseed Oil, Saponified Shea Butter, Saponified Jojoba, Saponified Cocoa Seed Butter, Saponified Meadowfoam Seed Oil, Chamomile Extract, Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Essential Oil, Mineral Pigment, Alkanet Root (Batschia Canescens for Color)"

http://www.drugstore.com/products/p...=goobase_filler&device=c&network=g&matchtype=

So, without having to use all of those, I would suggest OO (cheapest available is fine), CO, and PO. (OO at 50% at least.) However, that said, if you don't mind it not being veggie, lard with some OO is nice, or lard with OO and a bit of CO. No need for all the oils on the planet, lol. You can substitute beef tallow for lard if so desired. The lard or tallow make a nice creamy lather. I've even made 100% tallow that is nice.

Just a suggestion. Shea is nice, but adds density, and is more expensive than the others, does not make lots of bubbles at all. Could add 5% of a more expensive like the shea.

 

[Soapman Ryan]

Looking at the ingredient list for one of Level Naturals, it is an all veggie oil soap.

"Saponified Coconut Oil, Saponified Soybean Oil, Saponified Sunflower Seed Oil, Purified Water, Saponified Palm Fruit Oil, Saponified Olive Fruit Oil, Saponified Castor Seed Oil, Saponified Safflower Oil, Saponified Rapeseed Oil, Saponified Shea Butter, Saponified Jojoba, Saponified Cocoa Seed Butter, Saponified Meadowfoam Seed Oil, Chamomile Extract, Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Essential Oil, Mineral Pigment, Alkanet Root (Batschia Canescens for Color)"

http://www.drugstore.com/products/p...=goobase_filler&device=c&network=g&matchtype=

So, without having to use all of those, I would suggest OO (cheapest available is fine), CO, and PO. (OO at 50% at least, CO and PO for the rest, equal or in whatever amounts you like.) However, that said, if you don't mind it not being veggie, lard with some OO is nice, or lard with OO and a bit of CO. No need for all the oils on the planet, lol. You can substitute beef tallow for lard if so desired. The lard or tallow make a nice creamy lather. I've even made 100% tallow that is nice.

Just a suggestion. Shea is nice, but adds density, and is more expensive than the others, does not make lots of bubbles at all. Could add 5% of a more expensive like the shea.

I'd like to stay all veggie. It's just much easier to purchase oils opposed to lard and tallow. I was concerned about moisturization, as prior to using Levels naturals I had dry skin. I'm so glad I got off store bought products. Will the olive oil, alone, have enough conditioning in it?

 

[mel z]

I'd like to stay all veggie. It's just much easier to purchase oils opposed to lard and tallow. I was concerned about moisturization, as prior to using Levels naturals I had dry skin. I'm so glad I got off store bought products. Will the olive oil, alone, have enough conditioning in it?

Maybe not. That Level has a lot of nice, yet expensive oils. OO and add Vitamin E maybe? Won't get the same lather and bubbles though. Let someone with more experience help you with that one.

 

[Soapman Ryan]

Maybe not. That Level has a lot of nice, yet expensive oils. OO and add Vitamin E maybe? Won't get the same lather and bubbles though. Let someone with more experience help you with that one.

That's my problem, I'm not sure which oils in their list to buy. My first attempt had 8 oils and I feel it was a dud. Not very many bubbles, nor did it have the silky, creamy feel. After making this batch, I have learned to make much smaller test batches, around 3-4 ounces each.

 

[mel z]

It looks like a very good recipe! 8) But, I notice Coconut is your leading oil, too much coconut can be drying.

I was playing with lots of oils too, then realized I was getting no where fast, and decided to play with the ones I know I like how they feel, and stick with that. I was spending too much $$$ on nice oils. :thumbdown:

 

[Soapman Ryan]

Forgot to mention: I take two showers a day, so I go through one LEVEL bar in about 14 days.

 

[new12soap]

I do NOT recommend trying to make soap in 3-4oz batches. Your margin for error goes from very small to non-existent, I hope at the very least you are using a jeweler's scale and measuring to the tenth of a gram. Even with a 1lb batch the margin between 5% superfat and ZERO is less than one-tenth of an ounce!

I do not necessarily agree that vegetable oils are easier to get, lard is available at every grocery store, and suppliers carry both lard and tallow. Animal fats make lovely soap IMO but if you prefer to stay all veggie then that's no problem, there are a lot of ways to get the qualities you are looking for.

Since you asked for feedback about what oils you should use, that really is all about trial and error and personal preference, but it looks to me like you are kind of over-complicating it and maybe trying to reinvent the wheel there. Olive oil and rice bran oil perform very very similarly, you can easily get rid of one or the other. In fact, have you tried a basic 30/30/30 recipe? Try that using olive, coconut, and palm, then use castor to make up the remaining 10%. If you are concerned about the coconut oil being too drying, increase your superfat. You can play with the percentages, of course, if you want to cut back the coconut you can up either or both of the other 2 (I would not go over 10% castor). If you want to add something more, I would say try using any ONE of the other oils, shea butter or sweet almond or sunflower, and i would start at say 15% of your total recipe. That should be enough when compared to your base recipe to see if you like what it does for the soap.

JM2C HTH

eta: 20% coconut oil should not be overly drying, but sometimes 2 showers a day can be!

 

[Soapman Ryan]

I do NOT recommend trying to make soap in 3-4oz batches. Your margin for error goes from very small to non-existent, I hope at the very least you are using a jeweler's scale and measuring to the tenth of a gram. Even with a 1lb batch the margin between 5% superfat and ZERO is less than one-tenth of an ounce!

I do not necessarily agree that vegetable oils are easier to get, lard is available at every grocery store, and suppliers carry both lard and tallow. Animal fats make lovely soap IMO but if you prefer to stay all veggie then that's no problem, there are a lot of ways to get the qualities you are looking for.

Since you asked for feedback about what oils you should use, that really is all about trial and error and personal preference, but it looks to me like you are kind of over-complicating it and maybe trying to reinvent the wheel there. Olive oil and rice bran oil perform very very similarly, you can easily get rid of one or the other. In fact, have you tried a basic 30/30/30 recipe? Try that using olive, coconut, and palm, then use castor to make up the remaining 10%. If you are concerned about the coconut oil being too drying, increase your superfat. You can play with the percentages, of course, if you want to cut back the coconut you can up either or both of the other 2 (I would not go over 10% castor). If you want to add something more, I would say trying using any ONE of the other oils, shea butter or sweet almond or sunflower, and i would start at say 15% of your total recipe. That should be enough when compared to your base recipe to see if you like what it does for the soap.

JM2C HTH

new12soap,
Thanks for the guidance. I do have a jeweler's scale, that's were I got the idea of smaller batches. I'll purchase basic oils: olive, coconut, palm, castor and one other for conditioning purposes and try a 30/30/30, just to see what the effects are for comparison.

 

[melstan775]

Shea butter has a lot of fats that cannot saponify, donuts a good superfatting oil. Palm I think saponified most the way through. I have skin irritations and I find shea in soap really helps with that a lot. A lot a lot even. Consider makin your largest percentage of oil in your recipe olive. I have found increasing my olive oil ad reducing palm and coconut make a smoother bar and it still hardens up.

 

[Soapman Ryan]

Shea butter has a lot of fats that cannot saponify, donuts a good superfatting oil. Palm I think saponified most the way through. I have skin irritations and I find shea in soap really helps with that a lot. A lot a lot even. Consider makin your largest percentage of oil in your recipe olive. I have found increasing my olive oil ad reducing palm and coconut make a smoother bar and it still hardens up.

How low can I go on coconut? Should I use the smallest amount I can get when I plug it into soapcalc, just to get the number at 12 (the minimum number for cleaning)?

 

[Soapman Ryan]

melstan775,
Since your using shea this may also contribute to why your bars are getting hard. Shea is a very hard oil. Would you share the percentage you use?

 

[VanessaP]

How low can I go on coconut? Should I use the smallest amount I can get when I plug it into soapcalc, just to get the number at 12 (the minimum number for cleaning)?

Cleansing doesn't mean that it will clean better. All soap will clean. The higher the cleansing # just means that it is better at stripping oils. That is why coconut oil is popular for laundry soap.

As long as you are superfatting at 5-7% (I stay at 7% to 9% for regular bars), then 20% coconut oil is perfectly fine, that is not too high unless you're sensitive to it or have more sensitive skin.

Lard is easy to purchase locally - all you have to do is go to the grocery store. In fact, olive oil, coconut oil and lard make one of my favorite soaps, and I can buy all 3 ingredients at Walmart if I need to.

 

[Soapman Ryan]

Cleansing doesn't mean that it will clean better. All soap will clean. The higher the cleansing # just means that it is better at stripping oils. That is why coconut oil is popular for laundry soap.

As long as you are superfatting at 5-7% (I stay at 7% to 9% for regular bars), then 20% coconut oil is perfectly fine, that is not too high unless you're sensitive to it or have more sensitive skin.

Lard is easy to purchase locally - all you have to do is go to the grocery store. In fact, olive oil, coconut oil and lard make one of my favorite soaps, and I can buy all 3 ingredients at Walmart if I need to.

Thanks for letting me know about cleansing. Where would I look for lard at wal-mart, is it in the oil aisle?