Overshooting cleansing range

[Babyshoes]

agree that 45% lye concentration is too "aggressive."
will probably drop it back to 40% for future experiments.



would love more clarification from this.
my understanding is that saponification is complete within 24-48 hours.
so no further chemical reactions will take place after this.
curing soap simply allows the water to evaporate.
so, the cleansing properties of this soap should not change... no?

As I understand it, cure time is not simply for water evaporation, rather it includes a process of crystal formation.

In my experience, older soap does seem milder, but I've only got a few months of soap making under my belt. I'm sure someone more experienced will be along with a better explanation!

 

[dibbles]

my understanding is that saponification is complete within 24-48 hours.
so no further chemical reactions will take place after this.
curing soap simply allows the water to evaporate.
so, the cleansing properties of this soap should not change... no?

@DeeAnna has an interesting article about the changes that take place during cure.
https://classicbells.com/soap/cure.asp

 

[amd]

Also speaking from personal experience, my skin wouldn't tolerate salt bars that were cured for 6 months but allowed to age to 2+ years and my skin finds it to be less cleansing more tolerable soap. **Yes, I know we're not talking specifically about salt bars, this is just an easy example for me to relate to. I've also had it happen with older recipes when I was first making tweaks and didn't like the results after a 6 week cure. As I've gone back to use up those old soaps, my notes no longer apply in many cases and it's actually a nicer soap compared to my initial evaluation.**
So yes, curing is about more than evaporation, and the soap performance does change over time. You can see this for yourself by aging some of your own bars and taking meticulous notes and/or pictures of the lather.

 

[AliOop]

^^ ditto what @amd said. I've recently tried some of my "meh" soaps from two years ago, and they are really nice now.

 

[cmzaha]

In my opinion, a "Primo" soap is 3-5 years old including salt bars.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Second this. Made a RBO/mango butter soap some time ago, and though it looked decent on paper, it didn't work out after two, three months. Now, approaching the one year mark, it really rocks! Gosh am I happy I've tried it again. Things are happening at their pace, you can't enforce them. ETA: Not so much the “cleansing” – every soap cleans – but the overall perfromance, lather development, longevity, etc.

When I add up the Lauric, Myristic, Palmitic, Stearic, Ricinoleic, Oleic, Linoleic & Linolenic scores - I typically come out with the number 97. (On rare occassions it's 95 or 96... but mostly 97.) In this recipe, it's 95. So what does that mean?

That means that the oils contain other things than these fatty acids. Lauric oils (palm kernel, coconut, babaçu) have a few % of MCT fatty acids (caproic/caprylic/capric acids) that don't contribute much to the soap performance, but “take up space” in the fatty acid balance. Similarly, unsaponifiables (avocado, shea, olive, rice bran oil).
If you like, compose a soap recipe out of cupuaçu butter, macadmia, abyssinia and/or avocado oil, and try to figure out what is going on with these numbers.

 

[kagey]

If you like, compose a soap recipe out of cupuaçu butter, macadmia, abyssinia and/or avocado oil, and try to figure out what is going on with these numbers.

yeah -- using only these oils gives you funky numbers --
but it's not very realistic since none are "cleaning" oils (they all lack lauric & myristic acids).

the epiphany I had was how closely tied these acids were although the total score may vary.
I had no idea.
soap qualities of cleansing/bubbles, creamy lather and conditioning are all connected.
when we include oils that are strong in one acid, we can never "make up" for it with another.

when formulating a soap from scratch, we essentially have to choose what we want our soap to be.
If we want a strong cleansing soap - we have to give up some conditioning and creamy lather.
On that same note, if you want a super condition soap... it probably doesn't clean or bubble well.
(yes Castille does clean even though it has a "0" score... but it's really more of a conditioning bar.)

I used this epiphany to work my formula backwards.
creating a soap high in lauric/myristic acid means I'll have to sacrifice P&S or O,L&L acids.
(I honestly don't see the value of using Castro Oil to get a Ricinoleic score.)
The total score is finite.
Thought it was an observation worth sharing since I've never seen it talked about in any soaping formula posts.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Your observations are correct. These “soap numbers” are nothing else than sums of subsets of the fatty acids. Cleansing = Lauric+Myristic, Bubbly = Lauric+Myristic+Ricinoleic, and so on.

On the other hand, particularly that “cleansing number” (its name in particular) is often criticised, rightfully IMHO. It suggests a way of thinking about soap recipes that is not universal – ask any castile soap aficionado!
Every soap cleans, but the ones with much lauric/myristic just give you the impression to be particularly cleansing, without having much more of an actual cleaning effect than others. They are just more aggressive in their action, so that they operate quicker and mostly appear to clean off dirt better because they dissolve faster when rubbing the bar of soap – at the price to more easily strip off too much of the stuff that better should stay on the skin, and let it leave irritated.

I'd be in, should the crowd once decide to rename the “cleansing number” into “impatience number”.

 

[penelopejane]

yeah -- using only these oils gives you funky numbers --
but it's not very realistic since none are "cleaning" oils (they all lack lauric & myristic acids).

the epiphany I had was how closely tied these acids were although the total score may vary.
I had no idea.
soap qualities of cleansing/bubbles, creamy lather and conditioning are all connected.
when we include oils that are strong in one acid, we can never "make up" for it with another.

when formulating a soap from scratch, we essentially have to choose what we want our soap to be.
If we want a strong cleansing soap - we have to give up some conditioning and creamy lather.
On that same note, if you want a super condition soap... it probably doesn't clean or bubble well.
(yes Castille does clean even though it has a "0" score... but it's really more of a conditioning bar.)

I used this epiphany to work my formula backwards.
creating a soap high in lauric/myristic acid means I'll have to sacrifice P&S or O,L&L acids.
(I honestly don't see the value of using Castro Oil to get a Ricinoleic score.)
The total score is finite.
Thought it was an observation worth sharing since I've never seen it talked about in any soaping formula posts.

Using just number I can see your points.
But if you use your instincts and test, test, test over time you will see a vast difference between a "perfect soap" by the numbers and a fabulous soap that does not correlate with any of the "numbers" at all. Making soap is not just science it is an art.

 

[JuLeeRenee]

I don't know how well it works but the Amish where my mom lives makes soap with Lavender, Sage, Oregano and Rosemary essential oils specifically for deodorizing the manly smell. I do know that my mom bought my son-in-law a bar of it and she said it seemed to work for him.

 

[kagey]

But if you use your instincts and test, test, test over time you will see a vast difference between a "perfect soap" by the numbers and a fabulous soap that does not correlate with any of the "numbers" at all. Making soap is not just science it is an art.

100% agree that numbers don't tell the entire story.
And that soap making is just as much art as science.

 

[AliOop]

Using just number I can see your points.
Making soap is not just science it is an art.

True. But I also believe that there is more science of which we are unaware, which science would explain why certain oils make nice soaps, despite s0ap calculat0r predictions. If we knew that science, we could build better calculators that would make more accurate predictions.