Organic vs. non-organic oils?

[drunkonlife]

New to soapmaking and am building up a small collection of oils (coconut oil, olive oil, a little shea butter, etc.) I eat organic and naturally bought organic oil but am now rethinking my decision considering how harsh the soapmaking process is and the chemical changes that occur.

Other than saying 'it's organic' is there any benefit to using organic materials in soap? The difference in price is GINOURMOUS!

Also, I bought some palm kernel oil and am now learning that there is a definite difference between palm oil and palm kernel oil. Will I need to buy palm oil if the recipe calls for it or can I readjust my lye mixture for PKO?

 

[BrewerGeorge]

No opinion on the organic thing, but palm oil is very different from PKO. You can adjust the lye and make soap with it, but the result will be a different soap. Think of PKO as similar to coconut oil.

 

[drunkonlife]

Thanks. I was suspecting so much as PKO is such a hard oil. So, generally I can expect a harder bar of soap out the gate then, I guess? *sigh* Guess I need to hit the local grocery for some palm oil....

 

[lionprincess00]

Generally speaking, you have 4 types of fats.
Cleansing ones which strip natural oils. These are CO, pko flakes, babassu oil. These are used at a lower % to cleanse, bubble, but not completely strip your hide.
Then you have your hard fats to make a creamy hard bar. Palm, tallow, and lard are predominantly used.
You also have your oils to soften the soap some, add their qualities to the finished bar etc. Olive, avocado, sweet almond oil, ho sunflower, castor to stabalize lather etc.
Finally are your butters. Shea, cocoa, mango. These add creaminess and some unsaponified qualities (shea does I know).
There are others of course, but these are beginner basics.

So pko is used, more often, with co as a split. Think if 20% co, split half co half pko, or 12% co with 8% pko type of thing.
You need to grab palm, lard or tallow. I love lard. Cheap at walmart, makes a creamy bar, nice overall.

On organic, it's a personal choice. I am not willing to go broke for my hobby lol, so I choose regular oils. You cant say your soap is 100% organic anyway without buying only essential oils 100% organic and lye 100% organic, which lye isn't and never will be.

 

[toxikon]

I personally think that it's not worth the price bump for organic. It's only label appeal.

 

[shunt2011]

Another one who doesn't think it's worth the cost to use organic in soap.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Thinking practically, what makes an organic oil "organic"? Generally, it is the products used on something during the growing stages of it (even for animals), pesticides, antibiotics and the like. So a better term is "organically grown" in that sense. It extends to manufactured products being made mainly with organically grown products.

A question is - how much of those pesticides and other chemicals are in the plants grown? The next question, how much of these make it in to the final oil? Next, how much of these make it in to the finished soap, once the lye monster has had some fun with it all?

Then we have to look at how much of this final amount actually enters us. If you eat a non-organically grown avocado, that is one thing. But using a bar of soap that was made with oil produced from a non-organically grown avocado............that is something else. The amount of soap on the body is quite small, and the oils are only a part of that - the pesticides and so on in that oil part of the of small amount of soap on the skin will be small, and only a very small amount of that small amount of a small amount will enter the body................

I don't think that "organic oils" are needed for soaping.

 

[IrishLass]

I agree. It's not worth the price to buy organic oils for soap-making.

Re: the difference between Palm/PKO. Ditto what the others have said- they are very different from each other and produce very different results in soap. Although both contribute to hardness, palm oil contributes very little in the way bubbly lather and is not anywhere near as skin-stripping compared to PKO, which produces lots of bubbly lather and is a much more powerful cleanser/skin-stripper than palm oil.

Finally are your butters. Shea, cocoa, mango. These add creaminess and some unsaponified qualities (shea does I know).

Butters also contribute to hardness.


IrishLass

 

[lionprincess00]

I agree. It's not worth the price to buy organic oils for soap-making.

Re: the difference between Palm/PKO. Ditto what the others have said- they are very different from each other and produce very different results in soap. Although both contribute to hardness, palm oil contributes very little in the way bubbly lather and is not anywhere near as skin-stripping compared to PKO, which produces lots of bubbly lather and is a much more powerful cleanser/skin-stripper than palm oil.



Butters also contribute to hardness.


IrishLass

Youre right! I was going to state mango especially, I noticed, makes for a real hard bar, but I left it out. I should have also mentioned those wanting an animal and palm free soap tend to use butters to harden a bar (if not making castille etc).

 

[SheLion]

Depending on the price difference, I will sometimes buy organic (mainly shea butter as I use it in some leave-on products). I don't care about label appeal and I realize that the lye monster leaves little unscathed. However, I do consider that purchasing organic means that fewer pesticides were used and released into the air and soil during the growing process, meaning the oil's carbon footprint is overall less and that is important to me. Anything I can do to contribute to a less toxic world overall is a good thing.

 

[toxikon]

Not trying to "stir the pot", but organic farming has both pros and cons when it comes to the environment. I'm still on the fence about it, TBH - in it's current condition, anyway. Hopefully we'll find the best methods to protect the environment as we progress through time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_farming#Disadvantages

 

[SaltedFig]

New to soapmaking and am building up a small collection of oils (coconut oil, olive oil, a little shea butter, etc.) I eat organic and naturally bought organic oil but am now rethinking my decision considering how harsh the soapmaking process is and the chemical changes that occur.

The choice to make soap using certified organic oils can be made for much the same reasons as making the choice to use organic ingredients in food – to control or limit exposure to potentially harmful substances.

Heavy metals and some pesticides (including ones that are now banned, such as DDT) can reside in soils for decades. The certification process requires on-farm soil testing, and no farm can become certified organic if they do not pass these tests.

Plants are able to uptake toxins to greater or lesser degrees. Some species are so good at this that they are used as bioremediators. An example of an excellent phytoremediator (bioremediating plant) is the sunflower, which has been used to extract radioactive toxins from the areas surrounding Fukushima, with remarkable results.

Oils made from plants (or animals) grown on soils with a high heavy metal or pesticide “load” from years of industrial and/or farm use can contain pesticides, heavy metals, genetically modified ingredients and on. The risk of contamination can be considered low, but cannot be said to be zero.


Some people choose organic food to avoid the risk, some people choose organic skin care products (or, as in the case of soap that can never certified 100% organic due to the lye, skin care products made with certified organic oils) to avoid or minimise the risk. It really is up to you.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

The choice to make soap using certified organic oils can be made for much the same reasons as making the choice to use organic ingredients in food – to control or limit exposure to potentially harmful substances.

Heavy metals and some pesticides (including ones that are now banned, such as DDT) can reside in soils for decades. The certification process requires on-farm soil testing, and no farm can become certified organic if they do not pass these tests.

Plants are able to uptake toxins to greater or lesser degrees. Some species are so good at this that they are used as bioremediators. An example of an excellent phytoremediator (bioremediating plant) is the sunflower, which has been used to extract radioactive toxins from the areas surrounding Fukushima, with remarkable results.

Oils made from plants (or animals) grown on soils with a high heavy metal or pesticide “load” from years of industrial and/or farm use can contain pesticides, heavy metals, genetically modified ingredients and on. The risk of contamination can be considered low, but cannot be said to be zero.


Some people choose organic food to avoid the risk, some people choose organic skin care products (or, as in the case of soap that can never certified 100% organic due to the lye, skin care products made with certified organic oils) to avoid or minimise the risk. It really is up to you.

But what IS that risk? It's not zero, but what are we actually talking about? I'm not saying that people shouldn't use organic oils, but I am saying that people should actually be informed before deciding whether to do so or not.

So how what % of a non organic oil is made up of a heavy metal? Of that, how much enters our blood stream?

Is that final figure actually then dangerous? Our bodies themselves produce "dangerous" chemicals naturally, but in amounts which make it far from bad for us - so is the final amount of a heavy metal which is absorbed via bathing or using a lotion at a level which would cause harm?

 

[SaltedFig]

But what IS that risk? It's not zero, but what are we actually talking about? I'm not saying that people shouldn't use organic oils, but I am saying that people should actually be informed before deciding whether to do so or not.

So how what % of a non organic oil is made up of a heavy metal? Of that, how much enters our blood stream?

Is that final figure actually then dangerous? Our bodies themselves produce "dangerous" chemicals naturally, but in amounts which make it far from bad for us - so is the final amount of a heavy metal which is absorbed via bathing or using a lotion at a level which would cause harm?

I come at this from the other end of the scale - I prefer to err on the side of caution. I like oils that I can have confidence in having a known and traceable history, with no additives, preservatives, GMO's or pesticides. Organic certification provides me with that level of certainty, and the soil testing for heavy metals and residual pesticides helps remove another possible source of contamination of the oil. It doesn't mean that oils that aren't certified are contaminated, it just means I don't have to worry about it :mrgreen:

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

But that can lead to some problems - for example, the false idea often purported online that a preservative in a product should be avoided because there might be a slight chance of a risk of a possible issue. Also other things like syndet ingredients which many people automatically equate with being something to avoid at all costs.

While each person is free, of course, to choose organic oils or not, I think it right that the issue be explored in a reasonable way, especially in a thread looking at organic and non-organic as a source. Not everyone can pay the price of organic oils, and so erring on the side of caution is not an option for everyone.

 

[SaltedFig]

I'm not trying to convince anyone else to use organic oils.
On the other hand, offering them as an alternative, and some information as to why I choose then, when the question is raised, is not unreasonable.

There may be misinformation out there. That does make discussion a little harder.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Agreed. But is the cost actually required? As you say, you pay the extra just in case. But if that is not what someone wants or can do, then a deeper look at the potential issue is not unreasonable.

 

[styarr]

Organic farmers do use pesticides, often ones that are just as toxic as synthetic pesticides, and their products do have residue. A study was done here in Canada that showed 50% of organic produce in supermarkets had pesticide residue. I'd also like to point out that if the product was produced in another country it may not have been done with the same standards as the country you are buying from. There have been heavy metals found in organic food, especially those imported from certain countries. Despite soil testing, there is a risk of introducing heavy metals through manure. The only way to know 100% is to test it yourself.

 

[SaltedFig]

Agreed. But is the cost actually required? As you say, you pay the extra just in case. But if that is not what someone wants or can do, then a deeper look at the potential issue is not unreasonable.

Absolutely. I think some of the problem with complex issues (like skin reactions and their causes, or health and dietary input as two classic examples) is that finding the cause (or causes) can be time-consuming and requiring of concerted and sustained effort - not everyone is up for that, and (not unreasonably) go searching for answers online.

I would also encourage looking at alternatives (to whatever ideal is being looked at).

A short story - I have a friend that comes from very practical stock and we regularly "argue" the toss on organic growing, and debate growing media, composts, plants sources and on ... I come from pretty much the same perspective as I do here with the oils, she basically wants people to get into growing their own first, and worry about the costly/fiddly/details later.

There's a point to both perspectives. It's good to have both available, I think.

 

[SaltedFig]

Organic farmers do use pesticides, often ones that are just as toxic as synthetic pesticides, and their products do have residue. A study was done here in Canada that showed 50% of organic produce in supermarkets had pesticide residue. I'd also like to point out that if the product was produced in another country it may not have been done with the same standards as the country you are buying from. There have been heavy metals found in organic food, especially those imported from certain countries. Despite soil testing, there is a risk of introducing heavy metals through manure. The only way to know 100% is to test it yourself.

Pesticides used in organic farming have to meet organic input criteria here. So copper sulphate and slaked lime is accepted for some spraying purposes (as an example). Roundup, and similar, is not accepted. I'm not sure on the residue in Canada, I can only speak for the people I deal with (who are the farmers of the organic produce I buy). I don't know if my local supermarket has organic fruit and vegetables - I suppose they would. It's sad that you have so much pesticide spray - hardly organic then :silent:

On manures, there is also a risk to the soil bacteria and worm populations if the animals have recently been drenched too (organic inputs is another topic that I could REALLY go on about lol).