Opposite of super-fatting for grease cutting soap?

[RogueRose]

I'm wondering if anyone here uses extra lye in their soap that is to be used for something like dish soap or laundry soap. It might not be best for laundry soap but I know in commercial dish washers they use a soap/lye mix that is fed into the water when the dishwasher is activated (this stuff burns when in contact with the skin..)

Another use would be doing something like 20% extra lye in a liquid soap for cleaning burnt on grease on pans and baking trays. The spray cleaners are up to 80% lye so I would think 20% might not be too harsh and gloves would be a definite for use.

anyway, anyone do this?

 

[Nevada]

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53387

 

[RogueRose]

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53387

Was that thread supposed to cover adding extra lye or something? I read that post a couple days ago (most of it anyway) and most people were talking about 5-20% SF which is the opposite of what I'm talking about. I'm not sure you understood what I was trying to accomplish.

 

[Susie]

No, I do NOT intentionally make lye heavy soap that could possibly harm people I love. I make 0% superfat liquid soap to cut grease.

 

[RogueRose]

No, I do NOT intentionally make lye heavy soap that could possible harm people I love. I make 0% superfat liquid soap to cut grease.

You do understand that there are products commercially available at retail stores that are about 80% lye and 20% carrier agent/foam don't you. I don't know what the attitude is about, with the statement a "could harm people I love"... Obviously the lye heavy soap would be a specialty soap which would be understood it is meant to be used carefully for specific applications. I'm sure that the soap, even SF'd soap, could harm people you love if it were left where a small child could get to it, especially if it smelled yummy. I don't feel the need to make it clear that the soap is NOT to be eaten even though it may smell edible or be shaped like a cup cake or whatever.

Check out oven cleaner - almost 90%+ lye spray in commercial brands. Professionals use straight lye on pots, pans & ovens with a steam wand to kick up the reaction.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Rose, you asked if people here do it, so when they respond that they don't because they aren't comfortable with homemade, most likely unsuitably packaged lye heavy products, you don't really have reason to come down on them too hard.

Let's assume that you asked for tips on how it might be done. I would start by reading the ingredients lists and realizing that what they do is not likely to be your end goal.

With what we do you then have the problem of soda ash -- soda ash being cause by water taking the lye to the air and forming sodium carbonate. If you make any sort of 'wet' product, this would be likely to happen. In fact, it will still be likely to happen with a dry product as moisture gets in and reacts anyway. Even if it is sealed, each time you open it, you reduce the cleaning power.

I'll tell you the same thing that The Admirable Lady has to tell me now and then - "we don't have to make everything here. It's okay to buy some things"

 

[RogueRose]

Rose, you asked if people here do it, so when they respond that they don't because they aren't comfortable with homemade, most likely unsuitably packaged lye heavy products, you don't really have reason to come down on them too hard.

Let's assume that you asked for tips on how it might be done. I would start by reading the ingredients lists and realizing that what they do is not likely to be your end goal.

With what we do you then have the problem of soda ash -- soda ash being cause by water taking the lye to the air and forming sodium carbonate. If you make any sort of 'wet' product, this would be likely to happen. In fact, it will still be likely to happen with a dry product as moisture gets in and reacts anyway. Even if it is sealed, each time you open it, you reduce the cleaning power.

I'll tell you the same thing that The Admirable Lady has to tell me now and then - "we don't have to make everything here. It's okay to buy some things"

I'm sorry if what I said sounded like it was coming down too hard, I contemplated that when posting and didn't know how to soften it further and get the point across without being even more verbous. As it stands I didn't ask if anyone makes unsafe products or implied anything unsafe about products to be made, nor did I ask if anything about products to be given to someone else or loved ones - THOSE things were injected into the thread by whoever. It's kind of leading the thread off topic and is a ploy used by some internet trolls on forums when they see things they don't like (not saying whoever is a troll, just saying that's a technique).

As for making stuff - I agree, but if I have what I need to make XYZ when I need it, I'm not driving 15 miles to the store to get it.

 

[DeeAnna]

I get understand your question, RR, but I do not understand your harsh responses. Susie is NOT remotely a troll. She was giving an honest response to your inquiry, so comments that suggest otherwise are inappropriate. I would say the vast majority of us have exactly the same goal that she does.

In general most people who want to discuss various cleaners are asking about how to make less hazardous alternatives, not trying to dupe the hazardous versions.

The only recent thread I can recall that diverged from this general goal was the superlye castile thread where we were making soap with up to a -40% lye excess. Even in that long adventure, the focus was if the soap would eventually become skin safe, not whether it would remain lye heavy for cleaning purposes such as oven cleaner or dishwashing machine detergent.

To answer you question, no, I have not intentionally made a soap based cleaning product that is lye heavy for use in my home nor do I foresee doing so. Maybe others have and will be able to contribute meaningfully to your original inquiry.

 

[dillsandwitch]

Learned something new today about oven cleaners. this explains the reason I felt like I was dying after catching a whiff of oven cleaner the last time I cleaned my oven. If only I could take it outside to clean

 

[Susie]

When I purchase oven cleaner or other "dangerous" cleaning products, those products are labelled in such a manner that any adult picking them up would know that they needed to use certain safety measures when using the product. All they have to do is read that label. If they fail to do so, and are harmed, it is their own responsibility.

My homemade soaps and other cleaners have at the best a hand made note stuck on the side. Often there is no label, unless I have re-purposed a bottle that contained the same general sort of product. (such as dish-washing liquid) I do not have access to any sort of professional labeling equipment. Any harm that comes to them is my responsibility.

I feel that some products, such as oven cleaners, are best left to the big producers. They are tested and checked by agencies of the government to ensure proper labeling and contents that will not harm the user under the circumstances that are described on that label.

In order for me to develop a safe product that works well, I would have to test that product repeatedly with slightly different formulas. This would take years of my life cleaning the oven, or whatever. I really don't want to do that.

So, I repeat, no, I do NOT intentionally make lye heavy soap that could possible harm people I love. I make 0% superfat liquid soap to cut grease. It works for most of my uses. The paste is actually better than Dawn at removing motor grease from hands and arms. I am currently trying a paste mixed with coffee grounds for extra scrubbiness.

 

[nsmar4211]

Susie, I'm curious...what size batches do you make for 0% SF batches? Do you make them bigger than say 2 lbs to reduce the chances of mis measuring?

I'm wondering if a 0% SF would be good for an odor/stain bar for hands for say twice aweek use....

 

[dillsandwitch]

to be honest Ive never read the ingredients of the oven cleaner I use. Yes Ive read the the big warning to not breath the fumes and where a mask. We had a weird smell coming from the oven a while back. Every time it was turned on it smelt like burning plastic mixed with something I cant explain but it was horrible. I was wearing my mask when cleaning it but I guess i maybe went a bit overboard with the cleaner and after I was done and took off the mask there was still the residue? fumes? whatever hanging around the kitchen. It wasn't intentional and lesson learned from it, turn on the exhust fan if using alot of cleaner. hopefully I will never have to clean the oven that much again. I dunno what caused the smell but it took forever to go away.

 

[Susie]

Susie, I'm curious...what size batches do you make for 0% SF batches? Do you make them bigger than say 2 lbs to reduce the chances of mis measuring?

I'm wondering if a 0% SF would be good for an odor/stain bar for hands for say twice aweek use....

For bars, I tend to stick with 2 lb oil/3 lb soap size batches as it is difficult for me to ensure that my stickblender head stays immersed in less. It also fits perfectly in my mold. I have the KD7000 scale, which works marvelously to keep me from mis-measuring.

Are you asking about an odor/stain bar for laundry? Or hands?

For laundry, I use nothing but 0% SF for stain bars, I make liquid soap to use in the washer. You really don't want or need extra free oils for laundry or dishes.

For hands I use liquid soap with 3% SF.

If I don't have good ventilation in the kitchen, I use the dolly and move the stove outside. It is the benefit of not having a built in.

 

[nsmar4211]

Right now I'm only doing bar soap for body/hands . Considering my own laundry soap, but chicken to use my clothes as an experiement LOL.

Okay, the 3% for hands answers my "avoid mismeasuring" then. Think I'm going to do some more experimenting today!

Thank you for answering .

Moveable stove...what a concept.... mine isn't going anywhere! I don't use the oven enough to need heavy duty cleaners yet luckily. Baking soda and vinegar have been holding up. Hey, we can mix up our own oven cleaners!

 

[RogueRose]

to be honest Ive never read the ingredients of the oven cleaner I use. Yes Ive read the the big warning to not breath the fumes and where a mask. We had a weird smell coming from the oven a while back. Every time it was turned on it smelt like burning plastic mixed with something I cant explain but it was horrible. I was wearing my mask when cleaning it but I guess i maybe went a bit overboard with the cleaner and after I was done and took off the mask there was still the residue? fumes? whatever hanging around the kitchen. It wasn't intentional and lesson learned from it, turn on the exhust fan if using alot of cleaner. hopefully I will never have to clean the oven that much again. I dunno what caused the smell but it took forever to go away.

There is a very good chance that it was residue of the cleaner. When lye is heated (NaOH, IDK about KOH) it can smell a little plasticy and give off what SEEMS like an acrid smell although I really don't think it is acidic b/c lye is a base. I'm wondering if when you cleaned some of the spray got on the heating element and wasn't thoroughly washed off after the cleaning process.

If using any of these lye heavy cleaners (read oven cleaner or heavy duty pot scrubber soap) I would suggest to wear thick gloves that cover fore arms and a mask (& clothes you don't care about) and use the exhaust fan and/or open a window. Also, after scrubbing the oven and cleaning out, I would wash again with fresh water to remove any remaining residue from the surface.


AS for the OP and the comments made regarding it and my response. I don't know if the intentions of what I was trying to do was misunderstood or what, but it seems as though some people may have had the idea that this product was intended for sale/resale or for other people to use, which isn't the case. I don't see this product any more dangerous than having a bottle of drain cleaner under the sink, in fact probably less dangerous as drain cleaner is 100% lye vs a soap that is ~ 15% lye by weight (for a 20% lye heavy product - for arguments sake..)

It just seemed like I was getting a lecture or that it was being insinuated that I was being unsafe by even contemplating making such a cleaner. It wasn't like I posted pictures of cupcake or seashell guest soaps and said "I want to make super caustic grease dissolving soap's that look like this - has anyone done this and if so how?"

Also, I didn't say Susie was a troll, I said that what she did is a technique that some trolls use (and regular posters who want to point something out) to change subjects, derail a thread or stir up trouble. I've read many of her posts before and I know she is FAR from a troll.

Moveable stove...what a concept.... mine isn't going anywhere! I don't use the oven enough to need heavy duty cleaners yet luckily. Baking soda and vinegar have been holding up. Hey, we can mix up our own oven cleaners!

If your oven doesn't need it your pots and pans might. You know the burnt on grease that is either a sticky light brown or a hard dark brown/black? That can be taken care of with baking soda & vinegar as well (adding heat helps) or even better cream of tartar (lye is the best, but I won't go there...:shh. make a paste of cream of tartar & H2O, spread it on the burnt on parts, let sit for a few hours (maybe on warm in oven) then scrub. I've saved some pans the could have been thrown out with this.

 

[dillsandwitch]

There is a very good chance that it was residue of the cleaner. When lye is heated (NaOH, IDK about KOH) it can smell a little plasticy and give off what SEEMS like an acrid smell although I really don't think it is acidic b/c lye is a base. I'm wondering if when you cleaned some of the spray got on the heating element and wasn't thoroughly washed off after the cleaning process.

If using any of these lye heavy cleaners (read oven cleaner or heavy duty pot scrubber soap) I would suggest to wear thick gloves that cover fore arms and a mask (& clothes you don't care about) and use the exhaust fan and/or open a window. Also, after scrubbing the oven and cleaning out, I would wash again with fresh water to remove any remaining residue from the surface.

The smell was there before I used the cleaner. Usually I just use a bit of vinegar in water to clean it. sometimes some vanilla essence in water. I dont really use the oven that much. but this smell. it was the worst thing. stunk up the entire house. And I have no idea what caused it either.

And yes I always wear all the protective stuff when dealing with chemicals. you should see me when I mix up my lye master-batch. You'd think I was dealing with nuclear waste or something. hahahaha

I just went overboard trying to get rid of the smell and now that I think about it more the reason I didnt have the exhaust fan on at the time was it had stopped working and we hadn't gotten it fixed yet.

on another note I really should get off the forum and go to bed. getting waaaayyyy past my bedtime. yes im lame hahahaha

 

[DeeAnna]

"... Susie, I'm curious...what size batches do you make for 0% SF batches? Do you make them bigger than say 2 lbs to reduce the chances of mis measuring? ..."

A zero superfat is nothing to be scared of. Really.

Even a modest negative superfat (aka lye excess) is not the end of the world.

If you're using an online soap calc and you're using normal commercial lye, a soap recipe set to zero superfat will likely produce a soap that has a positive superfat of about 5%, give or take. Every soap calc I've looked at (brambleberry, summerbeemeadow, soapcalc, MMS, and others) assume NaOH is 100% pure, but it very seldom is -- and that is especially true after you've opened the container a time or three. Even direct from the manufacturer, the commercial grades of lye most soapers use are less than 100% pure (more like mid 90 percents). That purity drops fairly fast when the lye is exposed to moisture and carbon dioxide from the open air.

Even if you were to make a soap that has a slight lye excess (in other words a negative superfat), by the time the soap cures out, the lye excess will dissipate. I've seen that to be true in my soaps, including the "superlye" soap I mentioned earlier as well as "normal" soaps. Kevin Dunn, the author of Scientific Soapmaking, tested soaps with up to -5% superfat (lye excess of 5%) and observed the same thing.

 

[Stacy]

I can't help with the lye heavy angle, but if you're simply looking for grease cutting, you might want to read up on d-limonene.

It's super easy to use - mix 5% d-Limonene with 5% polysorbate 20, caprylyl/capryl glucoside, or PEG-40 hydrogenated castor oil, then add to 90% of your favourite dishwashing liquid and you have yourself a grease cutting liquid that can't be beat!

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/2015/01/using-d-limonene-in-your-cleaning.html

I tried this for cleaning up after the oils I use and it really was superior.

 

[kumudini]

Rose, I think you need to take a deep breath and retry to focus on your own quest. I saw that Gent had tried to answer your question, please pay attention. I think he has some very valid points. Efficient packaging and labeling is definitely going to be an issue if you want to make it for multiple uses. May be you could mix something up for single use without running into problems, as you seem to know the ingredients in all those type of cleaners. Wish I knew what went in to those kinda things, but may be later. Good luck to you in your search.

 

[lsg]

There are a lot of commercial products out there that I don't want to attempt to replicate. 0% superfat is as low as I have ever gone and that was for a laundry bar.