Olive and Palm Kernel soap- White layer help !

[saqqa]

Greetings my dear fellow soapers...
Am abit new.
Have made another small batch as trial-
Palm Kernel Oil- 90 grams (60%)
Olive Oil- 60 grams (40%)
Water- 57 grams
Lye- 22 grams

Added extra-
Sodium Silicate
Fragrance
Colour

I can see theres white layer after about 24hrs.
Is it soda ash or lye ? tough its soft and not hard or cracky.

 

[lsg]

I ran your recipe through SoapCalc and the amount of lye and water seems to be good. Is the top the same texture as the rest of the bar or is it softer? The only things that I can think of is that maybe the colorant did not become thoroughly mixed with the soap batter and settled or it might have been caused by the sodium silicate. How much sodium silicate did you add? You might read this on sodium silicate: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/sodium-lactate-and-sodium-silcate-whats-the-use.68802/

 

[SaltedFig]

Are you able to rub this white layer off and expose your soap color underneath? It does look like classic soda ash - the "layer" seems to have a fingerprint on the top, and the side extend down to match the mold marks, so looks like the white is only where the soap was exposed to the air as it saponified.

I also would ask how much sodium silicate you used (as per lsg).

 

[saqqa]

Thanks guys for your replies.
lsg- Thanks for checking my recipe in calc. Top layer is abit more dry (the whitish layer) compared to the rest of the soap.
Sodium Silicate- I have put is around 5 grams. (didnt measure it exact)

SaltedFig- See the attached new picture, the right side soap i tried to rub it with a small quantity of perfume ...Its abit hard to rub it off, but it does come off...see the result.

I tried using Sodium Silicate to make the soap hard (as I am in hot climate country,.....soaps tend to melt away really quick) Especially if there's Olive oil in a soap. Also our water is hard-water.


I guess its one of the 2 reasons, isnt ? (Soda Ash or Sodium Silicate didn't mix properly? )
As also I remembered I hadn't got FULL TRACE... I got really thin trace and I poured into mold. I just read that thats one of the biggest reason for soda ash (only am surprised it has happened on top layer and not all soap)

Ohhhh... btw, I forgot to add ... I had also put CHARCOAL in small quantity (really sorry, i missed to mention this earlier) ...

 

[SaltedFig]

It doesn't have to be one or the other, in the sense that it is likely to be soda ash, but the sodium silicate may have contributed.

"... Sodium Silicate- I have put is around 5 grams. (didnt measure it exact) ..."
It is very easy to mis-measure when you are making such small batches, and if you aren't carefully measuring some of the ingredients, this can dramatically change the percentage that you are using.

I reckon it's ash - (water glass crystals tend to look slightly translucent, sodium carbonate looks opaque).
Pouring at a thicker trace will help reduce the ash.

Making slightly larger trial batches, or measuring very precisely, while you're testing will also help you work out which ingredient is having what effect.

 

[saqqa]

Thank you for your indepth info

It doesn't have to be one or the other, in the sense that it is likely to be soda ash, but the sodium silicate may have contributed.

"... Sodium Silicate- I have put is around 5 grams. (didnt measure it exact) ..."
It is very easy to mis-measure when you are making such small batches, and if you aren't carefully measuring some of the ingredients, this can dramatically change the percentage that you are using.

I reckon it's ash - (water glass crystals tend to look slightly translucent, sodium carbonate looks opaque).
Pouring at a thicker trace will help reduce the ash.

Making slightly larger trial batches, or measuring very precisely, while you're testing will also help you work out which ingredient is having what effect.

 

[saqqa]

This is my 2nd attempt...
Unfortunately the soap is completely WHITE, SOFT and Cracky on the sides.

Recipe I did this time was abit different-
Palm Kernel Oil- 120 grams (40%)
Olive Oil- 180 grams (60%)
Water- 114 grams
Lye- 43 grams

Added blue colour and Essential oil and charcoal.
*Didn't add sodium silicate like last time.

 

[SaltedFig]

Can you describe your technique as well?

And is your water distilled water or tap water?

One further suggestion, for the next recipe, is to increase your lye concentration to 33% (this is not the water as percentage of oils, as you are using now - you will need to manually change the "Water" option to be either ratio or lye concentration ... either is good to use to control how much water is in your recipe.

So, reducing the lye concentration (using less water), pouring at a thicker trace and using distilled water should ease the amount of ash you are experiencing.

If you gel the soap (you might need to add a little heat with the reduced water) by either insulating it, or puting it in a warmed (but turned off) oven, the saponification reaction can occur quickly enough that the reaction with carbon dioxide doesn't get quite the foothold it is getting now.

 

[saqqa]

Thanks for your reply.
So you mean the 2nd or the 3rd option in the calc. ? So any of them i can put 33 ?

Can you describe your technique as well?

And is your water distilled water or tap water?

Water is distilled.
My technique-
Step 1- Mixing of oils together (i dont heat them as are already liquid)

Step 2- Mixing lye solutions, then I wait for about 10mins to let it cool down.

Step 3- Once i feel it has cooled off or is almost room temp (checking with hand) then i start putting lye solution into the oils.

Step 4- I hand mix it (yeah dont have hand blender yet)... For the next 10 to 15 mins. I start adding colour and scent and the charcoal.

Step 5- Once i get trace (sometimes its very lite trace)
I pour into the mould and store it inside a small box with a towel covering the box.

 

[SaltedFig]

Thank you for describing your method - that is very helpful!

I suspect that you are getting the carbon dioxide mixed in with the soap because you are hand-stirring at room temperature. This means that the saponification reaction is going really slowly and the lye gets a lot of time to react with the air, instead of the oils.

You can resolve this one of two ways - increase the heat or speed up the blending. Either of these will increase the rate of reaction and provide less opportunity for the alternate reaction with carbon dioxide. Also try not to whisk in air as you stir (this can be a little tricky with a small batch, so you will need to stir slowly and use heat to push the reaction along)

For the time being, try adding your lye as soon as it has cleared. It might still feel a bit hot, but when you can touch the jug, it is cooled enough. If you still get ash, you might need to add (external) heat until you get emulsion - it should continue well enough from that point.

Once you have a stick blender, you will probably find that a lot of your ash problems will be dramatically improved! (You will be able to go back to soaping cool then )

View attachment 33170
Thanks for your reply.
So you mean the 2nd or the 3rd option in the calc. ? So any of them i can put 33 ?

It would be 33% in lye concentration (option 2).
This is roughly 2:1 as a water:lye ratio - it's ends up as 33.33333% (option 3).

 

[saqqa]

SaltedFig Thank you so much for your in-depth suggestions

I will be attempting the same recipe again (have already got a new hand blender..yay )

- Do you suggest in all my olive oil receipe I put lye concentration at 33% ?

- As you said I mix the lye solutions when its cleared but still abit hot, (so hot is more preferred even if I use the hand mixer ? )

Thank you again

 

[demirhanunlu]

Same white layer has occured at my first try as well. This happens when you pour it into mold without trace happened. When you get a thick trace and then pour it, that white layer wont appear anymore.

 

[SaltedFig]

SaltedFig Thank you so much for your in-depth suggestions

I will be attempting the same recipe again (have already got a new hand blender..yay )

- Do you suggest in all my olive oil receipe I put lye concentration at 33% ?

- As you said I mix the lye solutions when its cleared but still abit hot, (so hot is more preferred even if I use the hand mixer ? )

Thank you again

@saqqa You are welcome and congratulations on getting a stick blender!

Use short bursts with your stick blender, then hand stir for a little bit, until you get used to quickly your batter is setting up (the stick blender alone will make the soap thicken fairly quickly, sometimes too quickly - depending on recipe).

"Do you suggest in all my olive oil receipe I put lye concentration at 33% ?"
I use 33% or higher for most of my olive recipes, so yes, you can use this percentage for all your olive soaps if you like - traditional olive oil tends to saponify quite slowly.

"...so hot is more preferred even if I use the hand mixer ?"
It's up to you. When using a stick blender (I hope this is what you mean by hand blender and hand mixer ), you can let your lye cool a lot (to cold, if you want) and saponification will still work. Using the lye while it's hot just speeds up the reaction (useful to know for the times you want the reaction to go faster, but hot lye is not necessary to successfully make soap). Most of my soap is made with cool lye.

You have a high amount of palm kernal oil in your recipe, you might find the reaction goes a little too quickly with hot lye, and cooler lye (as you used to do) would work better.

Which brings me to another thought ... are you using palm oil or palm kernal oil (the two are very different oils, despite the similar names).

 

[saqqa]

Which brings me to another thought ... are you using palm oil or palm kernal oil (the two are very different oils, despite the similar names).

Thanks for your reply. Yes its stick blender
The recipe i used was of Palm Kernel oil. (Next i will be trying for palm oil now)

I use 33% or higher for most of my olive recipes, so yes, you can use this percentage for all your olive soaps if you like - traditional olive oil tends to saponify quite slowly

Ok, I was thinking to make 100% castile soap i just saw in youtube a recipe which make 6% sp, and 30% lye discount (instead of 38%)

 

[SaltedFig]

Thanks for your reply. Yes its stick blender
The recipe i used was of Palm Kernel oil. (Next i will be trying for palm oil now)


Ok, I was thinking to make 100% castile soap i just saw in youtube a recipe which make 6% sp, and 30% lye discount (instead of 38%)

Nice!

A 100% castile (pure olive) can go as high as 38% lye concentration easily ... 30% lye concentration would be a little slow to come together (but it would still work - you might get a little shrinkage in the bar as it cures - I don't dislike the look because I make cubes with these, but after a couple of years it gives a bowed feel to bar soap at the edges, not so much on the face ... I might take some pictures tomorrow to show you (if I don't get caught up with other things)).

I tend to use a lower superfat for castile (it doesn't need a lot of spare oil in the soap).

The lye concentration can also be entered in as a ratio, so 2:1 (2 parts water to 1 part "lye") would be the ratio that is roughly equivalent to 33% lye concentration (this would be about the lowest I would think of going for lye concentration in a castile soap). The only option to avoid is water as a percentage of oils ... 38% in that field will give you VERY bowed soap after the cure (the lye concentration ends up somewhere around 27%, which is too low for CP castile).

Good luck! I'll be interested to hear how your adventures go

 

[saqqa]

The lye concentration can also be entered in as a ratio, so 2:1 (2 parts water to 1 part "lye") would be the ratio that is roughly equivalent to 33% lye concentration (this would be about the lowest I would think of going for lye concentration in a castile soap). The only option to avoid is water as a percentage of oils ... 38% in that field will give you VERY bowed soap after the cure (the lye concentration ends up somewhere around 27%, which is too low for CP castile).

Thanks for your knowledgeable input ..
So can I use 2:1 ratio in all castile soaps ? (even the recipe which i mix 40% palm kernel oil with olive 60%?)

Good luck! I'll be interested to hear how your adventures go

.. Sure, you make me more motivated in making soaps
Am re-doing the Palm Kernel soap again with the 33% Lye Concentration as per your advise(Palm kernel 40%, Olive oil pomace 60%)... Will keep you posted

 

[SaltedFig]

...So can I use 2:1 ratio in all castile soaps ? (even the recipe which i mix 40% palm kernel oil with olive 60%?) ...

I tend to use the word castile soap in the sense of 100% olive oil (traditional Spanish, rather than the modern use of the word to generally described a blended vegetable oil soap). So, to answer your blended 40% palm kernal oil and 60% olive oil recipe ...

A 2:1 water to lye ratio works for most soaps.

Your recipe is high in palm kernal oil (most recipes keep this, and the similar oils of coconut and babassu, to below 20% of total oils), because of it's strong cleaning ability (it can be irritating to some people at the higher percentages, with the exception of salt bars).
Palm kernal oil is a quick mover (it will get hot and reach trace quite fast).

Traditional olive oil is slow to come to trace, but olive oil pomace (chemically extracted olive oil) has been reported to be very quick to saponifiy.

This means that the soap will be quicker to thicken (saponify) than you are used to, so use the stick blender in very short bursts at the start and watch for emulsion ... you can swap between stirring and stickblending to control the speed a little.

If you find you are comfortable with this soap and ratio combination, you will find that you could use the 2:1 ratio for just about every recipe.
If it moves too fast for you, then you can adjust your ratio to around 2.4:1 (water:lye), or roughly 30% lye concentration.

I'm guessing you should be fine

.. Sure, you make me more motivated in making soaps

 

[saqqa]

I tend to use the word castile soap in the sense of 100% olive oil (traditional Spanish, rather than the modern use of the word to generally described a blended vegetable oil soap). So, to answer your blended 40% palm kernal oil and 60% olive oil recipe ...

A 2:1 water to lye ratio works for most soaps.

Your recipe is high in palm kernal oil (most recipes keep this, and the similar oils of coconut and babassu, to below 20% of total oils), because of it's strong cleaning ability (it can be irritating to some people at the higher percentages, with the exception of salt bars).
Palm kernal oil is a quick mover (it will get hot and reach trace quite fast).

Traditional olive oil is slow to come to trace, but olive oil pomace (chemically extracted olive oil) has been reported to be very quick to saponifiy.

This means that the soap will be quicker to thicken (saponify) than you are used to, so use the stick blender in very short bursts at the start and watch for emulsion ... you can swap between stirring and stickblending to control the speed a little.

If you find you are comfortable with this soap and ratio combination, you will find that you could use the 2:1 ratio for just about every recipe.
If it moves too fast for you, then you can adjust your ratio to around 2.4:1 (water:lye), or roughly 30% lye concentration.

I'm guessing you should be fine

thanks for your reply !....
Yes your right, it should not be called castile
Have already made the soap (with the 33%) and yes it the trace was quite fast and heavy and it was still abit warm when I had put in the molds.
Will un-mold them and send you pics after abt 24 hrs
stay tuned my dear soaper friend!

This is the new batch
Looks and feels very smooth and alot better than the previous ones... And its already hard ... Thank you @SaltedFig for your advises, soap looks awesome

Comparison between the 3 soaps

Now planning to make a soap with Palm Oil (not kernel), Olive oil and Coconut oil (from outer layer of coconut)... any advise on the recipe ?

 

[demirhanunlu]

View attachment 33273 This is the new batch
Looks and feels very smooth and alot better than the previous ones... And its already hard ... Thank you @SaltedFig for your advises, soap looks awesome

View attachment 33274 Comparison between the 3 soaps

Now planning to make a soap with Palm Oil (not kernel), Olive oil and Coconut oil (from outer layer of coconut)... any advise on the recipe ?

Do not use coconut oil more than 30%. Just an advice

 

[foggyfir]

Now planning to make a soap with Palm Oil (not kernel), Olive oil and Coconut oil (from outer layer of coconut)... any advise on the recipe ?

Here's a good starting point with the holy trinity of oils.
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/trinity-of-oils-starter-formula.64910/