Oh Lordy! It's another lye masterbatching question!

[amd]

Work is insanely slow today, so I have been reading on here (and getting paid for it! Life is good...) about lye masterbatching. It's on my 'To Conquer' list. I tried it once two years ago with disastrous results. I cried. I vowed never to do it again. Two years later I'm thinking I'm smarter now, so maybe I can handle this... with a little bit of hand-holding. In spirit of course because I'm going to need both hands for mixing lye.

In advance, thank you for your patience while I work this out. I'm putting my entire thinking in writing so if it is skewed anywhere, it will be readily apparent to those who are helping.

1. My masterbatch OIL bucket holds 12lbs. My recipe needs 2.24oz NaOH PPO. 2.24 x 12 = 26.88oz NaOH + 26.88oz H2O = 1:1 masterbatch LYE

2. I typically soap at 3:1 (water:lye) ratio - please don't start throwing percentages at me, my brain can't handle it! Let's just talk ratios, please? So, if I masterbatch my lye at 1:1 ratio, when I use it to make 1lb soap I would weigh out a total of 4.48 oz lye solution (2.24 oz lye + 2.24 oz water). To get the 3:1 ratio I would then add 4.48 oz water to the lye solution. Is this right? So then for increased batch sizes (2lb or 4lb) I would just take these numbers x2 or x4 to get the correct numbers.

3. Okay, so assuming that #1 & #2 are correct, if I wanted to make my coconut milk soap using the 50/50 split method (again using 1lb example) I would weight out 4.48 oz lye solution, add 1 oz water to solution, and add 3.50 ounces CM to my oils (like I usually do). 4.48 +1.0 + 3.5 = 8.98oz. Yeah?

Other random questions:
Can lye solution be made with Aloe Vera Juice, or would it be better to use water and plugin the AVJ when I use the solution?

How well does masterbatch lye work with room temp soaping? Am I going to need to warm up my oils before using? I mean, I know I could find this out for myself pretty quick with a 1lb test batch, but I'd like to be a little bit prepared upfront so if I have to move a bunch of stuff away from the microwave, I can do that before I start

Can I dissolve tussah silk in the masterbatch solution, or would it be ok added in with additional water? Or should I find a better way to use silk...

What about beer? Should that be added like coconut milk, or added like water? Does it need to be frozen, or really chilled or just flat? I think every time I've made beer soap I've made it differently, and still haven't really found a reliable way to do it.

Congratulations! You won a new car! Just kidding... but you did make it to the end of this post and that's kind of the same thing...

Thank you, again, in advance for your help, advice, and hand holding.

 

[cmzaha]

Okay you are making this much harder than it is. Make up however much master batch you want at 50/50. Now when you want to make soap put your 3:1 water in soap calc, your superfat and calculate. When you use the masterbatch solution you now have 50% water 50% lye, so if soap calc tells you to use 3oz lye you will use 6 oz master batch. For the liquid amount I look at the full requirement of liquid and deduct the lye amount from it to get to the required amount of extra liquid. Hope this makes sense. I have soaped with room temp lye for several years with absolutely no problems. When I use my solution I make sure the top is on tight and give it a little shake. All my liquids go into my oils before I add in my lye solution. Hope this helps. I also use aloe juice in my masterbatch, but not fresh aloe

 

[IrishLass]

Ditto what Carolyn said^^^^.

2. I typically soap at 3:1 (water:lye) ratio - please don't start throwing percentages at me, my brain can't handle it! Let's just talk ratios, please? So, if I masterbatch my lye at 1:1 ratio, when I use it to make 1lb soap I would weigh out a total of 4.48 oz lye solution (2.24 oz lye + 2.24 oz water).

Correct........ dry lye amount needed for your batch multiplied by 2 = how much 1:1 lye solution to weigh out.

To get the 3:1 ratio I would then add 4.48 oz water to the lye solution. Is this right?

Not necessarily. . It all depends on how much total water your particular formula normally requires when typed into a soap calculator........

To explain: in order to find out the amount of extra water you'll need for your formula using a 3:1 lye concentrate ratio, type your recipe into a lye calculator that gives you the option of setting your water amount in the form of a lye concentration (as opposed to a water as % of oil amount). I know you said you didn't want to mess with %'s, but you'll need to for this part, especially if you are using SoapCalc. Relax- I'll make it very easy on you - a 3:1 water to lye ratio is otherwise known as a 25% lye concentration. Simply type '25' into SoapCalc's Lye Concentration box, then press "calculate/print recipe" as normal, then do this simple equation:

Subtract the total water amount for your batch that SoapCalc gives you from the given dry lye amount SoapCalc gives you:

Total SoapCalc water minus 2.24 = the amount of extra water you need to add to your lye solution.

That's all you need to do. Easy peasy!

Other random questions:
Can lye solution be made with Aloe Vera Juice, or would it be better to use water and plugin the AVJ when I use the solution?

I only ever use distilled water to make my master-batch solution, so I can't vouch for how well an aloe/lye will store long-term. You can always try it with a small amount and see how it goes, though.

How well does masterbatch lye work with room temp soaping? Am I going to need to warm up my oils before using? I mean, I know I could find this out for myself pretty quick with a 1lb test batch, but I'd like to be a little bit prepared upfront so if I have to move a bunch of stuff away from the microwave, I can do that before I start

I don't use the room temp soaping method, so I can't say for sure, but for what its worth, if I need to soap on the warm side (which is pretty much always, lol), I either warm up my lye solution in a hot water bath, or just heat my oils hotter. Either way works.

Can I dissolve tussah silk in the masterbatch solution, or would it be ok added in with additional water? Or should I find a better way to use silk...

Yes you can. I dissolve tussah silk in every lye master-batch that I make. It stores great.

What about beer? Should that be added like coconut milk, or added like water? Does it need to be frozen, or really chilled or just flat? I think every time I've made beer soap I've made it differently, and still haven't really found a reliable way to do it.

Do you mean using beer as your lye master-batching liquid, or using beer in place of the extra water amount? Speaking only for myself, I would only do the latter (i.e. add it in place of my extra water amount needed......flat, room temp).


IrishLass

 

[cmzaha]

I also dissolve my silk cocoons in my hot masterbatch

 

[CaraBou]

2. I typically soap at 3:1 (water:lye) ratio... So, if I masterbatch my lye at 1:1 ratio, when I use it to make 1lb soap I would weigh out a total of 4.48 oz lye solution (2.24 oz lye + 2.24 oz water). To get the 3:1 ratio I would then add 4.48 oz water to the lye solution. Is this right? So then for increased batch sizes (2lb or 4lb) I would just take these numbers x2 or x4 to get the correct numbers.

That is correct. You need 3 times as much water as lye. Therefore, you need 3 x 2.24 oz = 6.74 oz water total PPO, which after subtracting 2.24 oz of water from your 1:1 masterbatch solution, means you need to add 4.48 oz of free water PPO. Multiply these numbers by 2 or 4 for 2 or 4 pound batches.

amd said:​

To get the 3:1 ratio I would then add 4.48 oz water to the lye solution. Is this right?


Not necessarily. . It all depends on how much total water your particular formula normally requires when typed into a soap calculator........

...I know you said you didn't want to mess with %'s, but you'll need to for this part, especially if you are using SoapCalc...

With all due respect, I think this answer is unnecessarily confusing and at least partially wrong. AMD stated her formula requires a 3:1 solution, which is a statement of the total water water needed (relative to lye), which does not "depend" on anything other than the lye amount, and does not need converting to percentage before plugging into SoapCalc. SoapCalc has a water:lye ratio setting. Maybe I misunderstood you, IL? Forgive any err please, it is late!

Regardless, in the end, we both agree cmzaha's simplified answer is best!

 

[CaraBou]

Addressing some other questions:

3. Okay, so assuming that #1 & #2 are correct, if I wanted to make my coconut milk soap using the 50/50 split method (again using 1lb example) I would weight out 4.48 oz lye solution, add 1 oz water to solution, and add 3.50 ounces CM to my oils (like I usually do). 4.48 +1.0 + 3.5 = 8.98oz. Yeah?

• Yep, you did that right too. I would just clarify for math-challenged others that your 4.48 oz lye solution (masterbatch) includes 2.24 oz of lye, so you're really only at a total of 6.74 oz of "water".

Can lye solution be made with Aloe Vera Juice, or would it be better to use water and plugin the AVJ when I use the solution?

• Like IL, I haven't done this either. But I'd be a bit stronger in recommending distilled water in your masterbatch and sub'ing AVJ for all or part of your remaining water needs. There's plenty of room for additives in a 3:1 recipe, so don't flirt with the gremlins!

How well does masterbatch lye work with room temp soaping? Am I going to need to warm up my oils before using?

• On a hot summer day in South Dakota, heating might not necessary. But during your fall/winter/spring, probably so! I almost always heat my oils, and similar to what IL mentioned, I usually set my masterbatch lye jug in a hot water water bath when I begin prepping for my soaping session. I do the latter to put/keep the NaOH in solution, so that my masterbatch concentration is as close as possible to what I think it is.

Ok, can I have the keys now?

 

[IrishLass]

With all due respect, I think this answer is unnecessarily confusing and at least partially wrong. AMD stated her formula requires a 3:1 solution, which is a statement of the total water water needed (relative to lye), which does not "depend" on anything other than the lye amount, and does not need converting to percentage before plugging into SoapCalc. SoapCalc has a water:lye ratio setting. Maybe I misunderstood you, IL? Forgive any err please, it is late!

Forgiveness not needed on your part, CaraBou, but instead on my part. In reading back over my response, I can see that my answer of "Not necessarily" did indeed unnecessarily throw confusion into the mix. I honestly don't know where my head was at right then. I thank you for speaking up, and I stand humbly corrected. My answer to that particular question by Amd should have just been a plain and simple, 'Yes, that is correct'.


IrishLass

 

[cgpeanut]

Work is insanely slow today, so I have been reading on here (and getting paid for it! Life is good...) about lye masterbatching. It's on my 'To Conquer' list. I tried it once two years ago with disastrous results. I cried. I vowed never to do it again. Two years later I'm thinking I'm smarter now, so maybe I can handle this... with a little bit of hand-holding. In spirit of course because I'm going to need both hands for mixing lye.

In advance, thank you for your patience while I work this out. I'm putting my entire thinking in writing so if it is skewed anywhere, it will be readily apparent to those who are helping.

1. My masterbatch OIL bucket holds 12lbs. My recipe needs 2.24oz NaOH PPO. 2.24 x 12 = 26.88oz NaOH + 26.88oz H2O = 1:1 masterbatch LYE

2. I typically soap at 3:1 (water:lye) ratio - please don't start throwing percentages at me, my brain can't handle it! Let's just talk ratios, please? So, if I masterbatch my lye at 1:1 ratio, when I use it to make 1lb soap I would weigh out a total of 4.48 oz lye solution (2.24 oz lye + 2.24 oz water). To get the 3:1 ratio I would then add 4.48 oz water to the lye solution. Is this right? So then for increased batch sizes (2lb or 4lb) I would just take these numbers x2 or x4 to get the correct numbers.

3. Okay, so assuming that #1 & #2 are correct, if I wanted to make my coconut milk soap using the 50/50 split method (again using 1lb example) I would weight out 4.48 oz lye solution, add 1 oz water to solution, and add 3.50 ounces CM to my oils (like I usually do). 4.48 +1.0 + 3.5 = 8.98oz. Yeah?

Other random questions:
Can lye solution be made with Aloe Vera Juice, or would it be better to use water and plugin the AVJ when I use the solution?

How well does masterbatch lye work with room temp soaping? Am I going to need to warm up my oils before using? I mean, I know I could find this out for myself pretty quick with a 1lb test batch, but I'd like to be a little bit prepared upfront so if I have to move a bunch of stuff away from the microwave, I can do that before I start

Can I dissolve tussah silk in the masterbatch solution, or would it be ok added in with additional water? Or should I find a better way to use silk...

What about beer? Should that be added like coconut milk, or added like water? Does it need to be frozen, or really chilled or just flat? I think every time I've made beer soap I've made it differently, and still haven't really found a reliable way to do it.

Congratulations! You won a new car! Just kidding... but you did make it to the end of this post and that's kind of the same thing...

Thank you, again, in advance for your help, advice, and hand holding.

Here is how I do this. I use Soap Cal.

When ever I make a recipe and get the view printout. I will immediately in the notes section Double my lye grams that I get and I label that Lye /water solution. I then subtract the water amount that I used in the lye/water solution and in my notes label that result Additional liquid. I use grams. Additional liquid can be anything you want or a combination of things as long as it is liquid.

I dissolve the tussah silk when I am making the masterbatch because I find it disolves easier. I find that when you put in with the additional water your lye is not heating up as high as it does when you materbatch the lye.

I use coconut milk powder so I let it hydrate in water after I have weighed the water.

This is just how use my masterbatch. I masterbatch 2 lbs of lye at a time. I store it in a tight sealing pour spout plastic jug. I also but my lye/water jug in a hot water bath. And then shake it. I double and triple check to make sure the spout is tightly closed and then place a hand towel over the spout when I shake.

 

[BrewerGeorge]

If you want to know "how" without necessarily knowing "why" all you have to do is swap the recommended amounts of water and lye that the calculator recommends.

 

[amd]

When you use the masterbatch solution you now have 50% water 50% lye, so if soap calc tells you to use 3oz lye you will use 6 oz master batch. For the liquid amount I look at the full requirement of liquid and deduct the lye amount from it to get to the required amount of extra liquid.

Thank you for saying this - not sure if it was the wording or just someone else saying it, but I was considering making my life a bit more difficult by having another masterbatch jug for my t&s batches that are just a bit bigger and one additional oil (so a different lye amount to account for both). It just kind of clicked right here that I don't need to do that, just adjust the amount of lye solution and water added to match the recipe.... and of course, make sure I don't run short right in the middle of a batch ('cuz that math would give me a headache having to do it on the fly).

Do you mean using beer as your lye master-batching liquid, or using beer in place of the extra water amount? Speaking only for myself, I would only do the latter (i.e. add it in place of my extra water amount needed......flat, room temp).


IrishLass

Thanks for the beer info. I figured it probably wouldn't work well as a masterbatch, even with the lye I suspect it would be susceptible to some kind of mold or other funkiness. I'll try adding it as you suggest and see if my beer soap success improves. I'm not sure if you've ever seen Southside Soaps, but she makes these amazing swirls with whiskey and beer based soaps. I'm on a mission to at least once make a successful beer soap.

Can lye solution be made with Aloe Vera Juice, or would it be better to use water and plugin the AVJ when I use the solution?

• Like IL, I haven't done this either. But I'd be a bit stronger in recommending distilled water in your masterbatch and sub'ing AVJ for all or part of your remaining water needs. There's plenty of room for additives in a 3:1 recipe, so don't flirt with the gremlins!

How well does masterbatch lye work with room temp soaping? Am I going to need to warm up my oils before using?

• On a hot summer day in South Dakota, heating might not necessary. But during your fall/winter/spring, probably so! I almost always heat my oils, and similar to what IL mentioned, I usually set my masterbatch lye jug in a hot water water bath when I begin prepping for my soaping session. I do the latter to put/keep the NaOH in solution, so that my masterbatch concentration is as close as possible to what I think it is.

Ok, can I have the keys now?

Thinking more on it, I am leaning towards only using water in my masterbatch and adding the AVJ as the remainder. Then I only need one masterbatch jug of lye solution sitting around rather than multiples.

Thanks, everyone, for the tips re: masterbatch water bath. I'll just plan to have the waterbath handy and the microwave cleared just in case. The basement where I soap is just weird for temperature, regardless of the time of year it could be 63°F or it could be 93°F. It just depends if the boiler is running and how long it has been running (my main wall is right next to the boiler and my only heat source).

 

[amd]

If you want to know "how" without necessarily knowing "why" all you have to do is swap the recommended amounts of water and lye that the calculator recommends.

I'm not sure what you mean. If I were to do that my recipe would give me 2.24 for lye and 6.72 for water. So if I switched those and used 6.72 for lye solution and added 2.24 water... my soap would be lye heavy with 3.36 oz of lye used, and I would not have a 3:1 ratio I would have 1.72:1 ratio (3.36+2.42=5.78 total water / 3.36 lye = 1.72).

 

[BrewerGeorge]

I'm not sure what you mean. If I were to do that my recipe would give me 2.24 for lye and 6.72 for water. So if I switched those and used 6.72 for lye solution and added 2.24 water... my soap would be lye heavy with 3.36 oz of lye used, and I would not have a 3:1 ratio I would have 1.72:1 ratio (3.36+2.42=5.78 total water / 3.36 lye = 1.72).

I'm sorry, I read your post too fast. The 3:1 ratio is 25% concentration and I was thinking of it as 33% concentration. Please ignore my post above.

 

[CaraBou]

I honestly don't know where my head was at right then.

I totally get it, I had a day like that at work today! It's good to know I'm not drifting out there alone, lol.

If you want to know "how" without necessarily knowing "why" all you have to do is swap the recommended amounts of water and lye that the calculator recommends.

George's advice is spot on when you use a 1:1 masterbatched lye solution in a 2:1 (33% lye) soap recipe. Plug your normal recipe into soapcalc with 2:1 lye ratio and play along. The amount of water it spits out is the amount of 1:1 masterbatched lye solution you need to add (i.e., twice the amount of necessary lye). The amount of lye it says to use is the amount of extra water/liquid you need (i.e., the amount above what's already in the masterbatch solution, because so far you've only added half the amount of necessary water, via the masterbatch). It simplifies things greatly, and reduces the chance that gremlins (or you) mess up extra calculations.

That alone provides worth to the combination of using of a simple 1:1 masterbatch in a 2:1 recipe. Also, a 2:1 gives the benefits of a relatively low water soap (like quicker unmolding) though you do need to know the cons too (like needing a higher temp to gel).

 

[amd]

^^That will be useful for 2:1 soaps! I don't do many, as I typically only use that ratio for single color soaps that are mix and pour into the mold. Thanks for the clarification and putting that useful information in my head (and now written down in my notes).

 

[Soapmaker123]

Aloe Vera: Yes, you can mix dry lye into aloe vera; in my previous soap-making life.

Practically, this will enable you to put "aloe vera" into its name, and to construct an aloe-vera narrative in your sales description.

I don't do it now. I think that the lye must be harsh to the aloe vera.

P.S. You can buy big jugs of aloe vera at Walgreens.

 

[amd]

Aloe Vera: Yes, you can mix dry lye into aloe vera; in my previous soap-making life.

Practically, this will enable you to put "aloe vera" into its name, and to construct an aloe-vera narrative in your sales description.

I don't do it now. I think that the lye must be harsh to the aloe vera.

P.S. You can buy big jugs of aloe vera at Walgreens.

Thanks, I already do this with fresh lye. My concern was more long term for the aloe vera juice, if it would spoil or be more prone to spoilage. I decided not to masterbatch lye with AVJ, simply because it would have been one more jug of mixed up lye. As cmzhaha said, I was making it more complicated than I really needed to. Not all of my soaps are aloe vera - I have a few customers who are allergic to it so I would have needed to keep the jugs clearly labeled and make sure I didn't accidentally use the AVJ masterbatch in my coconut milk soap. bah, just simpler to have one materbatch made with water and add what I need when I make the soap.

I did, however, use silk peptides instead of tussah in the materbatch. I found two unopened 25g bags when I was cleaning this weekend. Will use the tussah when I run out of that. I will start using the masterbatch lye later this week, hoping to soap on Tuesday but it may be today if work continues to be slow.

 

[amd]

It made soap! Thanks all for the hand holding. It helped tremendously to have the input and support going into this new concept - and much better results than the last time.

 

[CaraBou]

Successful -- and very pretty!

 

[cmzaha]

It made soap! Thanks all for the hand holding. It helped tremendously to have the input and support going into this new concept - and much better results than the last time.View attachment 30372

Your soap looks lovely. What fo is it?

 

[amd]

Successful -- and very pretty!

Thank you! I am beyond stoked that I finally grasp the concept of lye masterbatch. Some day I'll figure out the concepts of lye percentages, but I'm happy to stick with lye ratio... although it would be nice to better understand some of the other conversations on this forum...

Your soap looks lovely. What fo is it?

Thank you, the FO is Crafter's Choice Coconut Rice Milk. It smells just like indian rice dessert. I had to stop myself from licking the spoon, haha. It's some vanillan content, so I left part of it uncolored and added TD to the other part. I think it is as dark as it will get, the vanillan content is in the 2-3% range if I remember right. The FO played well, no ricing or acceleration, although when I first added it to the batter, the batter turned a light peach, which I thought was weird. I've seen it turn brown before, but never peach!