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Michaelhannaster

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After my 3rd batch I found a nice recipe that feels good but the bar doesn't last long at all.

I use
20 % coconut oil
40% olive oil
30% palm kernel oil
10% shea butter
Fresh goat milk from the family goats as my liquid:)

Is there something that sticks out to anyone or something I can add to prolong the bar? My first 2 batches I did last long and were hard but weren't moisturizing at all

Thanks, a newbie soap guy..
 
Your recipe has about 1/3 myristic and lauric fatty acids (these two fatty acids = the "cleansing" number if you are using soapcalc). These two fatty acids do contribute to bar hardness (along with stearic fatty acid), but they are also highly soluble in water.

Reduce your coconut oil and/or palm kernel oil and add more shea, palm (not palm kernel), lard, tallow, or the equivalent so your cleansing number is in a more reasonable range. I bet you'll find your soap lasts longer.

Other ideas --
Make sure the bar can dry out thoroughly between uses. If it sits in water, it will get all "gloopy" and really soft.
Men often just rub the bar on their skin rather than rub the soap on a washcloth or sponge. Constant abrasion against hair is not good if your goal is a long lasting bar.
Let it cure longer.
Use a hardener -- sodium lactate comes to mind, although I haven't used it personally.

What were your other recipes that lasted longer? Maybe there will be some insight if you share them too.
 
holy cow, between the palm kernel oil & the coconut oil, your cleansing numbers are very high! palm kernel and palm oil often confuse new soapers.

maybe try this, it makes a very nice bar:

25% coconut or palm kernel oil (one or the other, but not both!)
10% shea butter
35% olive
30% palm, lard or tallow

5% superfat & use your goatsmilk


my next question would be how much liquid are you using? the more liquid, the less dense the bar is and the more rapidly it will "melt" in the shower...I use a water/lye of 2:1 or 33%...bars last much longer.
 
Good info thanks!

The other recipe I used that held up real well was
170g shea
170 g of palm oil
113 g coconut
113 g olive oil

This recipe created a good bar but just so dry on your skin
 
Your recipe should be plenty hard and long lasting. The only thing I can add, if you are happy with everything else about the soap is,
Make sure it gels, cure at least 8 weeks and don't use more that twice the amount of liquid as lye.
 
After my 3rd batch I found a nice recipe that feels good but the bar doesn't last long at all.

I use
20 % coconut oil
40% olive oil
30% palm kernel oil
10% shea butter
Fresh goat milk from the family goats as my liquid:)

Is there something that sticks out to anyone or something I can add to prolong the bar? My first 2 batches I did last long and were hard but weren't moisturizing at all

Thanks, a newbie soap guy..

if it's not drying, extra fat in the goats milk needs to cure longer .
 
Compare your second recipe with your first.

In #2 you are using palm and your cleansing number (sum of the myristic and lauric fatty acids) is a reasonable value. That means the soap will not be overly soluble in water.

In #1 you are using palm kernel and your cleansing number is far too high, giving you a very cleansing and very soluble soap.

Way big difference between the two -- and created simply by substituting one fat for another.
 
Try adding cocoa butter.

You could also try reducing your liquid so it cures faster. Try a ratio of 1 lye to 2 water.

Most shampoo bar recipes I've seen also have a good % of castor oil to boost lather but that's not going to contribute to a harder bar.

Enjoy your experimenting!
 
DeAnna, are you saying that PKO with a steric value of 5 and a palmitic value of 44 is more soluble than palm oil with palmitic at 8 and steric at 2??? ( according to soap calc which people seem most comfortable with).

A bar of 100% pko is much harder than a bar of 100% palm oil. Hard as in less soluble
 
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Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Edit -- A soap made with PKO is more soluble in water than a soap made with palm. A soap made with PKO will also be physically harder than a soap made with palm.

From what I found on SoapCalc.net --
PKO has lauric fatty acid at 49%, myristic 16%, palmitic 8% and stearic 2%.
Palm has lauric at 0%, myristic 1%, palmitic 44%, and stearic 5%.

Add the four numbers for each of these fats and you get a "hardness" number of 75% for PKO and 50% for palm. That tells me that PKO soap will be physically harder than a soap made from palm. No argument.

That hardness number, however, does not tell a person anything about whether the soap is less or more soluble in water. The "bubbly lather" number is the sum of just the lauric and myristic fatty acids. This number is the better indicator of solubility, meaning soap that dissolves in water more easily.

PKO is more soluble than palm because it has a lot more lauric and myristic fatty acids. You can see that in the bubbly score of 65% which is the sum of lauric and myristic. The more bubbles, the more soluble. Palm has only 1% of these more soluble fatty acids and its bubbly score reflects its lower solubility.

I agree this issue of hardness vs. solubility is confusing. It is common sense that a hard soap should last longer because the soap does not abrade away easily (like wood being smoothed with sandpaper). But it also makes sense that a less soluble soap should last longer because the soap does not dissolve as easily (like sugar dissolving in hot coffee). Ideally, a long lasting bar of soap should be fairly hard so the soap resists abrasion from the washcloth or skin and also relatively insoluble so the soap does not dissolve quickly when it is wet. No one fat gives that blend of properties, although tallow, lard, and palm come about as close as it gets to those goals.

--end edit

Soap based on lauric and myristic fatty acids (CO, PKO, babassu, etc.) is more water soluble than soap made with stearic and palmitic acids (lard, tallow, palm, etc.)

Soaps with predominantly coconut oil or PKO are certainly hard (meaning hard like a brick vs. soft like clay), but dissolve in water much more quickly than soaps made mostly with lard, palm, tallow, etc.

The OP was saying the PKO soap with huge hardness and cleansing values was not lasting very long. The OP said the second soap with Palm lasted longer, but it's hardness and cleansing values are much lower. Recipe 1 was certainly hard enough to resist abrasion, so what's the problem here? From my research, it's high water solubility.

Lathering is an indicator of water solubility. What soap lathers the most abundantly -- a lard/tallow soap or a coconut oil soap?

If you don't believe me, then please read Kevin Dunn's book Scientific Soapmaking or one of the soap chemistry texts available for free on Google Books, Project Gutenberg, Internet Archive, etc.
 
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If you don't believe me put in a recipe that's 100% palm vs 100% palm kernel oil and see which has the highest hardness value.
Or run both her recipes thru a soap calculator. ( I use SM3)

And as stated befor I do know what hardness means when referring to soap properties.
 
Here's another consideration for your recipes.

Coconut and palm kernel oils are very much alike.

Their fatty acid make-up is quite similar.

Palm oil is very different in make-up.

Palm oil is more like lard or tallow in fatty acid percentages.
 
holy cow, between the palm kernel oil & the coconut oil, your cleansing numbers are very high!
True, but slightly less so than Camay, Lux, Lifebuoy, Silk, Rainbow Research, and probably many other brands. Part of the reason they're so sudsy is that they dissolve so fast. They're hard because of saturation, but low molecular weight so they dissolve faster than they would otherwise.

Unless you're losing it to the soap dish and its runoff, longer lasting soap just means less soap on your washcloth, or wherever, at a time. You can age it longer, drying it out more, and that'll mean less dissolves at a time--which really means you're using less of it, exclusive of the wet soap dish losses already mentioned. Usually that's a trick done where it's Person A buying the soap and Person B using it, and A just wants B to use less soap.

25% coconut or palm kernel oil (one or the other, but not both!)
It's extra work for little gain to use both together, because their properties are so similar. To the extent you prefer one to the other, use it to the exclusion of the other. Mass market products often list "coconut or palm kernel" as an ingredient because they're trying to squeeze out an extra penny and so mix into their inventory whichever is cheaper at the moment.
 
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