My Perfect Recipe Has No Working Time

[SaltedFig]

See why I'm confused? :headbanging:

Yup!

Ok - these are rough stories (in that they're from memory, rather than notes, but the idea is the same).

Pure olive, at 38% water (water as concentration of oils) is a lye concentration of about 25% (so you have 3 parts water to 1 part lye). At this concentration of lye, olive soap will take a very long time to trace.

At a lye concentration of 33% (2 parts water to 1 part lye), it gets a bit quicker and is a nice balance of easy to work to not so much shrinkage (which is very pronounced in the high water version above).

At a lye concentration of 47% (roughly 1 part water to 1 part lye), it will take about double the time of the high water version.

It's the bits between about 36% lye concentration and 45% lye concentration that lionprincess and newbie would have a lot more information on. And that's where the tipping point is, where it changes from fast back to slow - somewhere in there.

 

[doriettefarm]

Below is my slowest moving lard/tallow recipe. It doesn't stay fluid as long as my slow trace lard recipe but it does allow enough time for multi-colored swirls.

30% lard
20% olive oil
20% coconut oil
15% tallow
10% apricot kernel oil
5% castor oil

When I attempted to modify it, bumping to an equal % of lard and tallow plus substituting palm kernel flakes for the coconut oil it moved like a freight train! I blame it on the PKF because it has alot more stearic than the non-hydrogenated PKO. But I must say that freight train batch turned out to be some really lovely soap. The lather is so dense and creamy that I will definitely repeat it again when I'm not feeling too ambitious about the design.

ETA: both batches used 33% lye concentration and sodium lactate

 

[Steve85569]

As I recall we did a high /low water combination for a challenge just over a year ago. one part was 40% ( 1.5:1 water: lye) the other was 2.8:1 ( w:L) and moved FAST.
I used a similar recipe ( I know why you like it).
Had to wait for the low water to start to thicken before I could add the rest of the water to the high water portion. That was using Nag for the FO. If memory serves me. I could very well be wrong on the FO.

I did the challenge more than once and had to wait for thick trace every time. It did produce an interesting effect because the high water portion gelled easily and the low water part did not gel.

 

[newbie]

BG, it would be worth a 1-2 pound batch for you to try a 1.5:1 or 1.4:1 water to lye ratio, for comparison. I use only SC as an additive so I can't say if the salt would affect how the batter would behave. When using the low water ratio, I have the oils warm to the touch and the same with the lye. It can take FOREVER to trace but for most people, seeing is believing on this issue. You do have to use a well-behaving FO to start though.

I recently did a low water soap and added Morrocan Fig FO which tends to move very quickly. I had tons and tons of time, which really threw me off. The low water batter is a thing to explore, that I can say.

 

[Soapmaker145]

That's really good to know. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes, too. The shortening is tallow and hydrogenated palm, so it's probably pretty full of stearic.

Maybe I'll just resign myself to using all lard (50% total) when I want more time. That's still super excellent soap if not quite as opaque and hard as the tallow.

I think the shortening might be the problem, what I call damaged oil which tends to trace fast. It is worth doing what Deanna suggested, a plain batch to see if you have a problem with your oils. I've done a number of soaps with a mix of tallow/lard and they moved very slowly even with butters and 3 to 5% stearic acid added.

Alternatively, you can try making the same soap using regular palm and tallow instead of the shortening to see if you still have the same problem.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

See why I'm confused? :headbanging:

Awwww, we're just tryin' to help, Georgie. LOL It does get crazy, doesn't it?

For my part, I'll defer to Fig. I haven't played with high lye concentrations, so I can't really compare on that level. I'm not a scientist and only know what works for me. Also, there are other factors that come into play as well, such as what oils are in our respective formulas, and Fig's Aussie humidity vs my Colorado alpine desert climate.

ETA: I just read Fig's post -- soaping 100% olive oil is waaaaay off the charts compared to a balanced formula (+/- 50/50 Sat/Unsat ratio; INS value @ +/-160), which is what I use, so that's why the difference in our replies. I hope that makes sense. ???

 

[lionprincess00]

Hey, I read you saying your recipe is probably loaded with stearic. For a comparison, my recipes show my stearic at a 9 to 10 typically. I *think* it may have been as high as 11 when i was rendering tallow as opposed to lard (poor family couldn't stomach the smell, thus I switched).

My current recipe is a 10 on stearic (12 % pko flakes and 60% lard), and I ran your recipe through soapcalc and you're at an 8. So I am guessing it isn't the stearic so much. I think Deeanna is on to something with the multiple salts. Sorry I can't help more!

 

[CTAnton]

Brewer George I made something very similar without the additional salts and it moved like the proverbial freight train. I chalked it up to the fragrance oil that I was trialing. I call it my first "rustic" CP soap and even THAT is a reach...I've been giving it to my testers with a lot of explanations...thanks for letting me know it wasn't just me!

 

[redhead1226]

Hi BG - Is it possible the GV Shortening isnt lard and tallow? You know they change their formula all the time. Not sure if it matters. have never used it as I have never found the ingredients list that on the ones carried in my Walmart.

 

[BrewerGeorge]

Hi BG - Is it possible the GV Shortening isnt lard and tallow? You know they change their formula all the time. Not sure if it matters. have never used it as I have never found the ingredients list that on the ones carried in my Walmart.

Anything is possible, and the proportions, especially could be changing. But the ingredients still say tallow and palm. (They're on the front under the picture of fried chicken.)

I've got 8 more scent samples coming and I think I'll do them with 50% lard so I have a good selection of soaps of nearly the same age to compare between tallow/palm/lard and just lard.

I was shelving all the samples last night and realized that the "natural" sample I did without color was almost indistinguishable from the "white" sample I did with 1/4 tsp ppo of TiO2. Part of the reason I chose the tallow combination was the nice, white, natural color but it looks like a little TiO2 will do that just as well.

 

[cherrycoke216]

Sorry for the derailment!
I have seen lots of people use Great Value tallow shortening, how do you put it in soap calc or soapee.com?
Just plug in crisco new with palm? Or maybe titrate it?
I mean, it's blended fats marketing as shortening. But we don't know the proportion of the aforementioned blended fats.
I'm asking this cause I use a local generic shortening(with palm oil) . Though I just wing it and plug in crisco new with palm. But it still bugs me a little bit.

And I have tried a recipe roughly look the same.The play time is quite short for me,too. But I'm in the subtropical zone, hotter (northern hemisphere) and humid here.

 

[CTAnton]

Cherrycoke there's a separate listing under Walmart GV shortening in soap calc and soapee.com....its not with Crisco, it's listed under "W"....
BG I'm wondering being your shortening percentage is 25% maybe divide that up between tallow and palm....possibly 15% tallow and 10% palm.

 

[RDak]

You are using too much sodium IMHO.

Start a new batch with no salt and see how that works.

If not good enough reduce the sodium citrate to only two teaspoons.

If still not good enough reduce the sodium lactate to only two teaspoons.

By then I would think your problem would be solved..........probably won't need to reduce sodium by that much but you get what I mean.

 

[Teapot]

I use a recipe with a high proportion of hard fats, also high stearic, and it does move fast. I don’t stick-blend this recipe AT ALL, just stirring with a long spoon or spatula is enough. I pour at very thin trace – sometimes even if I’m not sure that emulsion is complete – and then continue stirring in the mould. Much easier than trying to glop a load of pudding into the mould, and results in a flatter top, which suits me. I’ve sort of accepted that this recipe is just going to have to be a single-colour soap, but I’m ok with that.

I normally add my FO to the oils before adding the lye, but of course, there are some FOs that just accelerate too much for this recipe no matter when they are added.

Incidentally, it might be just me, but I seem to have the most problems with pink / red FOs – not the colour of the FO itself, but anything that you would expect to be pink or red, like raspberry, and pomegranate. Blues and greens (herby scents, sea breeze etc) seem to behave better. Would be really interested to know if anyone else has thought this.

I should add, I’ve never used salt or sodium lactate, but they’d be the first thing I’d leave out, if I was trying variations of your recipe.

 

[newbie]

I was looking at this recipe and plugged it into Soapcalc. Interestingly, Walmart shortening has a slightly lower SAP (141) than both Tallow (143) and Palm (142). It would be the calculator but it makes me wonder if there is some other oil in the shortening.

 

[newbie]

Okay, Brewer George, this is your recipe made with low water, sodium citrate and sugar. No salt or lactate. I had loads of time and in fact, it's still fluid and I could swirl it to death. Try the low water method and fewer solutes. Make sure you stop stick blending after emulsion and you will have gobs of time to color and design. Used a non-accelerating fo as well. Or make the soap and add the FO at the last moment before you are ready to pour. That lessens any chance that your FO will cause any trouble. I added mine at the last moment and it did thicken up faster but I had enough time prior that I could have mixed up ten colors. The FO can make a lot of difference.

I should add that I don't have Walmart shortening so I used 12% palm and 13% tallow because soap calc gave me the exact same numbers with that as it did with the shortening.

 

[WeaversPort]

Okay, Brewer George, this is your recipe made with low water, sodium citrate and sugar. No salt or lactate. I had loads of time and in fact, it's still fluid and I could swirl it to death. Try the low water method and fewer solutes. Make sure you stop stick blending after emulsion and you will have gobs of time to color and design. Used a non-accelerating fo as well. Or make the soap and add the FO at the last moment before you are ready to pour. That lessens any chance that your FO will cause any trouble. I added mine at the last moment and it did thicken up faster but I had enough time prior that I could have mixed up ten colors. The FO can make a lot of difference.

I should add that I don't have Walmart shortening so I used 12% palm and 13% tallow because soap calc gave me the exact same numbers with that as it did with the shortening.

That's beautiful, newbie!

 

[SunRiseArts]

I just asked a similar question to this on another thread. Thank you newbie, but the sugar and stuff make me dizzy and as I am sort of new at CP, scared to try those things .....

Does anyone has a good recipe with the Walmart shortening? What percentage would you use in a recipe of it? Would you use it instead of lard? Is it a hard oil? Thanks.

 

[newbie]

It is a hard oil, the shortening. The label has it listed as tallow and palm but not the percentages. Palm oil traces faster than tallow or lard so if you are looking for more time, I would use less palm or no palm. Lard is easy to get in the grocery stores so I would recommend that over the shortening, personally.

You don't need sugar or citrate or any of those things to make good soap. They do add some qualities you may be interested in later on, but simple is best when you are starting out, so no need to worry about those things.

Thanks, Weavers. It was not what I had in mind but that's okay. I just wanted to make something that took some time so BG could believe that it was doable.

 

[Susie]

Does anyone has a good recipe with the Walmart shortening? What percentage would you use in a recipe of it? Would you use it instead of lard? Is it a hard oil? Thanks.

Lard 25-45%
GV Shortening 20-45%
Olive Oil 15%
Coconut Oil 15%
Castor Oil 5%

Superfat 5%

I use KOH @ 5% to help with bubbles, but this is optional.

Makes a lovely hard bar with both larger bubbles, and rich, creamy lather. I have made all percentages of Lard to GV Shortening in 5% increments. I prefer Lard to be at 40-45%, GV Shortening at 20-25%. But it is up to you. And a good lesson if you play with those percentages yourself.

However, having said that, GV shortening does indeed hasten trace for me, depending on percentage.