My lard based soaps going rancid!

[getagrip]

Since all the all shutdowns starting in March here in our part of Missouri, so many of my lard based soaps (45% lard, 45% CO, and others) have gone rancid while waiting on my venues to open

. I always use ROE and vit E, but they've still gone bad. Most, not all. My customers have always loved my soap, but I can't handle this sort of loss! Any suggestions on a more stable recipe that doesn't use expensive oils? Sheesh! Could it be the sunflower oil?

 

[DeeAnna]

First off, I suspect you may be overdosing your soap with the vitamin e. Too much of a particular antioxidant can accelerate rancidity, not slow it down -- a process called pro-oxidation.

Sunflower oil naturally contains tocopherols (vitamin e), so you probably don't want to be adding more.

Also some tocopherols, including the main type of tocopherol found in most vitamin e health supplements, is not necessarily useful for protecting against rancidity in soap or fats. It might be helpful inside a person or on their skin, but that doesn't mean it's a good antioxidant for anything else.

Stick with the ROE alone and use the recommended rate. "If a little is good, more is not better" when it comes to antioxidants.

Also, you say nothing about your recipes nor methods. All we know is you're using sunflower oil and lard.

High oleic sunflower? Or conventional sunflower?
What are the expensive oils you are using in addition to lard and sunflower?
Are you using home rendered lard or commercial?
Hot process or cold?
Fragrances? If so, what kinds and how much?
Are you seeing overall rancidity (orange color mostly or completely covering the soap)? Or is it spots (aka dreaded orange spots, DOS)?

Photos would also be helpful.

 

[getagrip]

Wow, such great questions Dee Anna, and thanks. My go-to recipe, run through Soap Calc: 45% CO, 45% deodorized lard (50# cubes from restaurant supplier), 5% castor oil(Chemistry Connection), 5% conventional sunflower seed (Walmart gallons), 2000 vit. E, 15 drops ROE, hot processed. I have many fragrance oil varieties, using a fragrance stabilizer. Some even unscented. So far it's not DOS, but an overall rancidity So those batches I made in Feb. to prepare for spring sales are 10 months old. $$$
I think you all are steering me in the right direction, and backing off on the vit. E and switching out the sunflower oil to either olive or rice bran ( if I can find it locally?) might do the trick. Thank you so much!

Also, adding EDTA or citrate? New to me, but I'm researching... thoughts? I did not mention I collect and pre boil rainwater for my liquid...or 25% goatmilk and rain..

 

[TheGecko]

Since all the all shutdowns starting in March here in our part of Missouri, so many of my lard based soaps 45% lard, 45% CO, and others) have gone rancid while waiting on my venues to open.

Was this a new recipe or an established one? If it is the later, you might want to contact your customers to see in anyone still has any soap previously to check to make sure it hasn't gone rancid because soap shouldn't go 'bad'. I have some Goat Milk Soap that is over 10 years old that, though a bit smaller than when I bought it, is still a good bar of soap.

I would start with @DeeAnna suggestion...eliminate the Sunflower Oil and Vitamin E and just add the ROE. Make a small batch and see how it goes.

I did not mention I collect and pre boil rainwater for my liquid...or 25% goatmilk and rain..

While boiling rainwater will kill off bacteria and parasites, it won't help with other contaminates that interact with the lye.

 

[DeeAnna]

Your 5% conventional sunflower is not much of a concern to me as far as adding a lot of polyunsaturated fatty acids to the fatty acid profile. I haven't run the recipe through a calculator to know the fatty acid profile; you may want to double check for yourself. If you'd said conventional sunflower was 50% of your recipe, that would be another story.

I'm surprised you're using that much coconut oil -- the high lauric and myristic fatty acids in this soap would probably be a very drying formulation for my skin. You don't say what your superfat is, however, and a higher superfat might tone down the harshness of a high-coconut soap.

I would also suggest you consider using distilled water for a time instead of rainwater and see if that helps. Not saying this change will be a sure-fire solution, but it's a possibility that's reasonable to try. Rainwater is certainly soft, and that's a plus. But it can contain airborne metals that may accelerate rancidity depending on how prevailing winds move airborne pollutants around a region.

Another option to consider is including a chelator. Commonly used chelators are EDTA and sodium citrate, but a newcomer that's more eco-friendly and effective is sodium glutamate.

"...45% CO, 45% deodorized lard (50# cubes from restaurant supplier), 5% castor oil(Chemistry Connection), 5% conventional sunflower seed (Walmart gallons), 2000 vit. E, 15 drops ROE, hot processed ..."

I suggest people give all information in terms of weights. There's no way to fully understand a soap recipe if it's given in a mix of percentages and weights/volumes. For example, did that 2000 units of vitamin e and 15 drops of ROE go into a 20 pound batch or a 2 pound batch?

Also giving info in weights rather than percentages also provides some perspective about the size of the batch being made and might give some clues about how the batch of soap will typically behave in the soap pot and/or mold.

ROE, by the way, should be mixed into fats as soon as you receive them. That will carry over into your soap -- no need to add ROE twice. The sooner you put ROE to work protecting your fats, the better.

That said, it's good to check labels first -- typically commercial lard is hydrogenated and often contains an antioxidant (BHT for example), so you don't need to add ROE in this situation. Home rendered lard on the other hand should have ROE added.

 

[getagrip]

Yes, a recipe I revised from my original 60% Lard, 30% CO, always 5% SF, always 5% Sun & Castor, been using it for several years, but always sells quickly, I usually make Lotsa soap 3 times a year for markets, wholesale, park visitor centers...never had to hold onto it so long. MUST address the issue going forward, and your suggestions are greatly appreciated! Guess it's a good thing it was brought to my attention, so I can correct the issue.

Your 5% conventional sunflower is not much of a concern to me as far as adding a lot of polyunsaturated fatty acids to the fatty acid profile. I haven't run the recipe through a calculator to know the fatty acid profile; you may want to double check for yourself. If you'd said conventional sunflower was 50% of your recipe, that would be another story.

I'm surprised you're using that much coconut oil -- the high lauric and myristic fatty acids in this soap would probably be a very drying formulation for my skin. You don't say what your superfat is, however, and a higher superfat might tone down the harshness of a high-coconut soap.

I would also suggest you consider using distilled water for a time instead of rainwater and see if that helps. Not saying this change will be a sure-fire solution, but it's a possibility that's reasonable to try. Rainwater is certainly soft, and that's a plus. But it can contain airborne metals that may accelerate rancidity depending on how prevailing winds move airborne pollutants around a region.

Another option to consider is including a chelator. Commonly used chelators are EDTA and sodium citrate, but a newcomer that's more eco-friendly and effective is sodium glutamate.

"...45% CO, 45% deodorized lard (50# cubes from restaurant supplier), 5% castor oil(Chemistry Connection), 5% conventional sunflower seed (Walmart gallons), 2000 vit. E, 15 drops ROE, hot processed ..."

I suggest people give all information in terms of weights. There's no way to fully understand a soap recipe if it's given in a mix of percentages and weights/volumes. For example, did that 2000 units of vitamin e and 15 drops of ROE go into a 20 pound batch or a 2 pound batch?

Also giving info in weights rather than percentages also provides some perspective about the size of the batch being made and might give some clues about how the batch of soap will typically behave in the soap pot and/or mold.

ROE, by the way, should be mixed into fats as soon as you receive them. That will carry over into your soap -- no need to add ROE twice. The sooner you put ROE to work protecting your fats, the better.

That said, it's good to check labels first -- typically commercial lard is hydrogenated and often contains an antioxidant (BHT for example), so you don't need to add ROE in this situation. Home rendered lard on the other hand should have ROE added.

I'm posting this pdf of my SoapCalc recipe, if you could take a peek? Are the lauric and myristic acids out of whack? And yep, the lard I use ( new unopened cube so far) does have BHT! Cool!

 

[DeeAnna]

I'm not sure I should be the one to determine whether your recipe is "out of whack" because I'm not really in a position to judge. You know what you like and what you might want to improve. So in the spirit of teaching a person how to fish, rather than just giving them a fish, here's some info that you might find useful. This table is from your soap calc recipe --

This is the fatty acid (FA) profile. The numbers are the calculated percentages of each of these fatty acids. The numbers are averages, so don't get too hung up on a few percent either way. You're mainly looking for general trends, not exact numbers.

See how the top two FAs, lauric and myristic, make a total of 31%? With a 5% superfat, this soap might be overly drying to some people's skin. A soap maker making soap for sensitive or dry skin might cut the total L+M to 10-15% or even lower. That said, if this percentage of L+M works for you, it works for you. Don't feel the need to change this just cuz I said something about it. You have to please yourself, your family, and your customers, not me or anyone else.

A high percentage of L+M acids also makes the soap more soluble in water. This type of soap makes a lather with lots of fluffy bubbles, but the soap doesn't last very long.

The second two numbers -- palmitic and stearic -- are a rough measure of how long lived the soap will be. If your soap doesn't last long enough in the shower, it might be the P+S fatty acids are on the low side and your soap might benefit from boosting the palmitic and stearic percentages.

I normally shoot for 30-35% combined P+S to get a decently long lived soap that still lathers well. Some prefer closer to 40% combined P+S.

Ricinoleic acid from castor oil causes soap to be more soluble in water. It also helps to stabilize soap bubbles so the lather may last longer.

The last three fatty acids -- oleic, linoleic and linolenic -- are also highly soluble in water, so soap high in these fatty acids won't last as long as you might like. The lather from soap high in these FAs will be dense like whipped cream. Oleic acid is a key fatty acid typically found in soap. Linoleic and linolenic are optional fatty acids (as is ricinoleic.)

Linoleic and linolenic acids tend to go rancid faster than other fatty acids, so it's good to keep these two FAs to a low to moderate amount. Many people keep the total L+L to under 15% as a rule of thumb. I don't know there is any scientific basis for this rule of thumb, but it seems to work tolerably well.

 

[getagrip]

I'm not sure I should be the one to determine whether your recipe is "out of whack" because I'm not really in a position to judge. You know what you like and what you might want to improve. So in the spirit of teaching a person how to fish, rather than just giving them a fish, here's some info that you might find useful. This table is from your soap calc recipe --

View attachment 51577

This is the fatty acid (FA) profile. The numbers are the calculated percentages of each of these fatty acids. The numbers are averages, so don't get too hung up on a few percent either way. You're mainly looking for general trends, not exact numbers.

See how the top two FAs, lauric and myristic, make a total of 31%? With a 5% superfat, this soap might be overly drying to some people's skin. A soap maker making soap for sensitive or dry skin might cut the total L+M to 10-15% or even lower. That said, if this percentage of L+M works for you, it works for you. Don't feel the need to change this just cuz I said something about it. You have to please yourself, your family, and your customers, not me or anyone else.

A high percentage of L+M acids also makes the soap more soluble in water. This type of soap makes a lather with lots of fluffy bubbles, but the soap doesn't last very long.

The second two numbers -- palmitic and stearic -- are a rough measure of how long lived the soap will be. If your soap doesn't last long enough in the shower, it might be the P+S fatty acids are on the low side and your soap might benefit from boosting the palmitic and stearic percentages.

I normally shoot for 30-35% combined P+S to get a decently long lived soap that still lathers well. Some prefer closer to 40% combined P+S.

Ricinoleic acid from castor oil causes soap to be more soluble in water. It also helps to stabilize soap bubbles so the lather may last longer.

The last three fatty acids -- oleic, linoleic and linolenic -- are also highly soluble in water, so soap high in these fatty acids won't last as long as you might like. The lather from soap high in these FAs will be dense like whipped cream. Oleic acid is a key fatty acid typically found in soap. Linoleic and linolenic are optional fatty acids (as is ricinoleic.)

Linoleic and linolenic acids tend to go rancid faster than other fatty acids, so it's good to keep these two FAs to a low to moderate amount. Many people keep the total L+L to under 15% as a rule of thumb. I don't know there is any scientific basis for this rule of thumb, but it seems to work tolerably well.

Oh, SNAP! This information is so wonderful! Thank you so much for sharing, and I hope other folks here will learn as much from this thread as I have. I'm definitely going to work on my numbers, especially the top two.

 

[earlene]

15 drops ROE,

Are you using Rosemary Oleoresin Extract (ROE) or are you using Rosemary Essential Oil? They are totally different. The reason I ask is because 15 drops of Rosemary Oleoresin Extract sounds like an awful lot.

Is your ROE a thick dark green substance? If not, it either isn't ROE, or it is diluted. Where did you purchase it; what name brand does it carry?

The active ingredient in ROE that works it's antioxident effect is Carnosic Acid, and ROE is sold with varying levels or strengths of Carnosic Acid. The higher the percentage of Carnosic Acid, the less ROE you need to add to your soaping oils.

The ROE I use has 7% Carnosic Acid (LINK) For the batch size you linked above, that would only be 1.5 - 3 grams of ROE, according to the regularly indicated amount for DOS preventio. I don't know how much 15 drops weighs, but I don't put that much ROE into a 7 gallon bottle of oil, let a soap with 1814 grams of oil.

See this for more detail and how to use ROE: Soapy Stuff: Rosemary oleoresin (ROE)

 

[KiwiMoose]

I found this to be quite helpful too - gave me some things to consider: The Most Popular Fatty Acid Profiles in Soapmaking

 

[DeeAnna]

I thought that article was really interesting too, @KiwiMoose, but one thing I've realized is the most common percentages for the fatty acids aren't necessarily the most effective ones. There are a lot of people using recipes that are marginal to tolerably okay, and I think that skewed her results.

For example, Kenna's survey showed the combined stearic and palmitic content averaged about 20% with a range from about 13% to 28%. But just because many recipes have a combined stearic and palmitic content in this range does not mean this is an ideal amount. When I first started to make soap, my recipes also fell in this range.

When my soap making mentor critiqued soap from these early batches, she said the soap didn't last long enough in the bath and challenged me to do better. Now most of my general purpose bath soap recipes contain to 30% to 35% combined stearic and palmitic and I am happy with the longevity. We've had some discussions here about this in recent months and I learned other soap makers shoot even higher -- 35% to 40%.

 

[getagrip]

Are you using Rosemary Oleoresin Extract (ROE) or are you using Rosemary Essential Oil? They are totally different. The reason I ask is because 15 drops of Rosemary Oleoresin Extract sounds like an awful lot.

Is your ROE a thick dark green substance? If not, it either isn't ROE, or it is diluted. Where did you purchase it; what name brand does it carry?

The active ingredient in ROE that works it's antioxident effect is Carnosic Acid, and ROE is sold with varying levels or strengths of Carnosic Acid. The higher the percentage of Carnosic Acid, the less ROE you need to add to your soaping oils.

The ROE I use has 7% Carnosic Acid (LINK) For the batch size you linked above, that would only be 1.5 - 3 grams of ROE, according to the regularly indicated amount for DOS preventio. I don't know how much 15 drops weighs, but I don't put that much ROE into a 7 gallon bottle of oil, let a soap with 1814 grams of oil.

See this for more detail and how to use ROE: Soapy Stuff: Rosemary oleoresin (ROE)

earkene

earlene, yes It's ROE by Crafter's Choice. I don't see a percentage on it's label. Honestly I don't remember where I came across that recommendation, maybe Soap Queen? Can't be sure..

 

[earlene]

earlene, yes It's ROE by Crafter's Choice. I don't see a percentage on it's label. Honestly I don't remember where I came across that recommendation, maybe Soap Queen? Can't be sure..

Look under Interesting Facts; the Carsonic Acid content is 7%. Then go to the tab, Directions & Ingredients, where it indicates the usage rate which is within the perameters in DeeAnna's classicbells article I linked above.

PS. Brambleberry does not carry ROE, so I doubt it was SoapQueen (owner), as usually her videos and web posts link to products they sell. It was mentioned by Kelsey at Bramble Berry in an answer to a comment, wherein she was answering a question about DOS prevention. (Link)

 

[cmzaha]

If you were to go thru some of the threads about lard here you will find I have always had problems with lard, as much as I like lard soaps I never go over 27% lard in my recipes. I combine lard with tallow and usually 13-15% liquid oil. I also add .5% each of EDTA and Sodium Gluconate. When I was making a higher percentage lard soaps I tried ROE and Edta it never stopped DOS, and I guarantee at least one person here will attest to it because she received one of my test samples. I tested several different brands of Lard and all went rancid. The percentage and combination I use now does not. I only use ROE in my liquid oils when I first purchase them.

 

[Mistrael]

I'm hesitant to point out the shady nature of American meat industries, but I feel like it's relevant. My experience in the restaurant industry is why I don't buy or use processed lard or tallow in food or soap, no matter the price. If I haven't bought it fresh from the butcher and smelled it myself, I'm not eating it. That deodorizing process isn't just to cut the meat smell. Lard & tallow is just a byproduct, not the target goal like olive oil.

 

[cmzaha]

I'm hesitant to point out the shady nature of American meat industries, but I feel like it's relevant. My experience in the restaurant industry is why I don't buy or use processed lard or tallow in food or soap, no matter the price. If I haven't bought it fresh from the butcher and smelled it myself, I'm not eating it. That deodorizing process isn't just to cut the meat smell. Lard & tallow is just a byproduct, not the target goal like olive oil.

Okay, and your point is.... It still makes good soap. There is a lot that we would not want to know that goes into the manufacturing of the foods we eat.

 

[NMBCreative]

I'm not sure I should be the one to determine whether your recipe is "out of whack" because I'm not really in a position to judge. You know what you like and what you might want to improve. So in the spirit of teaching a person how to fish, rather than just giving them a fish, here's some info that you might find useful. This table is from your soap calc recipe --

View attachment 51577

This is the fatty acid (FA) profile. The numbers are the calculated percentages of each of these fatty acids. The numbers are averages, so don't get too hung up on a few percent either way. You're mainly looking for general trends, not exact numbers.

See how the top two FAs, lauric and myristic, make a total of 31%? With a 5% superfat, this soap might be overly drying to some people's skin. A soap maker making soap for sensitive or dry skin might cut the total L+M to 10-15% or even lower. That said, if this percentage of L+M works for you, it works for you. Don't feel the need to change this just cuz I said something about it. You have to please yourself, your family, and your customers, not me or anyone else.

A high percentage of L+M acids also makes the soap more soluble in water. This type of soap makes a lather with lots of fluffy bubbles, but the soap doesn't last very long.

The second two numbers -- palmitic and stearic -- are a rough measure of how long lived the soap will be. If your soap doesn't last long enough in the shower, it might be the P+S fatty acids are on the low side and your soap might benefit from boosting the palmitic and stearic percentages.

I normally shoot for 30-35% combined P+S to get a decently long lived soap that still lathers well. Some prefer closer to 40% combined P+S.

Ricinoleic acid from castor oil causes soap to be more soluble in water. It also helps to stabilize soap bubbles so the lather may last longer.

The last three fatty acids -- oleic, linoleic and linolenic -- are also highly soluble in water, so soap high in these fatty acids won't last as long as you might like. The lather from soap high in these FAs will be dense like whipped cream. Oleic acid is a key fatty acid typically found in soap. Linoleic and linolenic are optional fatty acids (as is ricinoleic.)

Linoleic and linolenic acids tend to go rancid faster than other fatty acids, so it's good to keep these two FAs to a low to moderate amount. Many people keep the total L+L to under 15% as a rule of thumb. I don't know there is any scientific basis for this rule of thumb, but it seems to work tolerably well.

Thanks DeeAnna.

I learnt a lot from your post. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge.