Mixing Fragrance Oils with lye water has anyone done this?

[paradisi]

Kudos to the OP and other experimenters who have added another way to deal with speedy FO's. Good thinking

Old Hippie: There are more reactions possible with a lye solution than saponification.. which *must* include fatty acids.
Essential oils and fragrance oils do not contain fatty acids. So they do not saponify or need to be counted in superfat calcs.

They may react in other ways with the lye solution, as in losing or morphing scent, changing color, etc-- as do things like oatmeal, vegetable purees, even bentonite (all of which thicken the raw soap but don't saponify or superfat). Many essential and fragrance oils contain alcohol type scent chemicals which speed trace (eugenol in clove eo, and in many floral fo's, for example) but still don't affect fat level, not being fats.

Fragrance oils contain diluents that allow us to use them at roughly the same levels across soap formulas, but are not oils in the same way that olive or almond are.. they are not water soluble, to be sure, but aren't oils in the vegetable oil sense, not having fatty acids. Suppliers don't add vegetable oils instead of more stable diluents like DPG since they don't want their product to go off as fast as vegetable oils do. (This is not to say that some random seller on etsy or ebay or amazon might not cut their oils that way.. there, buyer beware.. but it's not industry practice.)

If you are truly curious about what is in fragrance oils, you can get a sense of them by reading the EU allergen reports many/most fo sellers supply; you'll see DPG, or often Benzyl benzoate, in high %, and those are the diluents. Youwill not find vegetable oils though.

Trade secret/proprietary ingredients regulations are not for hiding things that might be allergens (as vegetable oils could be), but for preserving technical advantages in production method, or scent formulations.. they're not out to fool you, or hide bad things--just to keep their scent ideas to themselves, the way you are not compelled to list who you get your eo or fo from on your product labels, and the exact eo or fo you have bought.

 

[jakropelnicki]

Salt helps to make a harder bar, but needs to be used sparingly to prevent it inhibiting the lather - balanced recipe soaps don't lather well in salt water.

The sugar changes the physical structure of the soap, how each soap molecule binds to the next one, which improves the lather.

If you've made soap without them, I would make a batch with the salt, one with sugar, and then one with both.

Is there a specific ratio you would suggest for each?

 

[cmzaha]

Well written Paradisi

 

[Rune]

Adding FO to a small amount of lye even in a gram bottle will give you a good idea if the fo will accelerate. It only takes a few drops in the little bit of lye, shake it and see what it does. This would be the only reason I would add fo to lye. If it is an accelerator it will clump up almost immediately

Wow, thank you for the invaluable tip! I have ordered a bunch of fragrance oils from Australia (that seems to be stuck in customs right now), and I have no clue if they will accellerate or nothing, apart from a very few listed on the spreadsheet on this forum. It seems like it's only the american sellers that list all sorts of info, like discoloration, acceleration etc. The only thing I know about them, are if they contain vanilla or not. So your trick is definately something I will try, so I don't risk suddenly having soap on a stick or other disasters.

 

[Nita]

I've never added FO to my GM/lye mixture; however, I have added titanium dioxide with no issue. I may have to give it a try!

 

[Desederata]

A fragrance oil isn't a carrier oil. That's why it won't saponify. Carrier oils are fats. Fragrance oils and essential oils are not.

I am wondering if the lady misspoke and meant to say she adds her FO to the oils? I do that a lot, add the FO to the oils and add the lye water.

Doesn't this accelerate trace though? I'm just learning and I was under the impression that the FOs and EOs were supposed to be added after trace has been reached?

 

[dixiedragon]

Doesn't this accelerate trace though? I'm just learning and I was under the impression that the FOs and EOs were supposed to be added after trace has been reached?

As far as I know, nobody (such as Kevin Dunn) has done controlled scientific testing of this. I think it works because rather than a concentrated dose of room-temp FO hitting the soap batter, you have FO mixed in with the oils so it is thoroughly dispersed and warmed to the oil temp. Also, this way you are doing less stirring. So if you bring the soap to trace, then add FO, then you have to stir some more to blend the FO.

Another benefit is that you are less likely to forget the FO.

 

[Veggiebin]

The last fo I had difficulties with, I added it to the oils before adding the lye, in addition to adding a lot less the second go around. I had used this fragrance blended with others without a problem, but it acted badly straight up, at a higher concentration. The fragrance was very strong and cutting the concentration down did not hurt the final product at all. Everything behaved better using this method - I really think that the concentration plays a role in how it acts, going along with what DeeAnna said earlier (gravy analogy). I read reviews of the fo after the fact (of course) and people complained that it accelerated trace, so I suppose looking at that beforehand would have been helpful

 

[soap1daze]

I use castor oil in every batch of soap. My castor oil portion is put into my fo or eo and is added to my batch at emulsification. When I have a touchy fo I hand stir the fragrance. Raising the temp of the castor oil/fo blend 10-20 seconds in the microwave to the same temp of the batch helps also in my experience. I soap around 90 degrees.

 

[shunt2011]

I always add my FO to my oils before the lye mixture. Only exception is really testy FO's then I'll separate, color then hand stir in the FO just before pouring. Since I started adding it to my oils, I've gained so much more control over my soap.

 

[aharvick]

I have a newbie question. Has anyone added FO that had vanillin to their lye and saw a difference in the way the vanillin affected the color/ smell?

 

[Desederata]

As far as I know, nobody (such as Kevin Dunn) has done controlled scientific testing of this. I think it works because rather than a concentrated dose of room-temp FO hitting the soap batter, you have FO mixed in with the oils so it is thoroughly dispersed and warmed to the oil temp. Also, this way you are doing less stirring. So if you bring the soap to trace, then add FO, then you have to stir some more to blend the FO.

Another benefit is that you are less likely to forget the FO.

I did it this way (added after reaching trace) on my last batch and used a spatula to mix it in and it worked out fine. On my second batch of soap I added it after I had reached trace, used the stick blender to mix it in and my soap became way too thick. I could hardly pour it. So I will try adding it to the oils on my next soap.

 

[Lin19687]

Remember that some FO's accelerate and some don't.
Your Recipe will matter too.

I do high Palm so I get trace fast, hand stir FO and Pray

 

[Desederata]

Remember that some FO's accelerate and some don't.
Your Recipe will matter too.

I do high Palm so I get trace fast, hand stir FO and Pray

okay, thanks Lin

 

[Moya]

Nice topic! Thanks to the OP and others who have given good comments to deal with speedy FO's.

 

[cmzaha]

Like Lin my vegan recipe is high in palm and is a mover so I try not to use accelerating fo's. I have different thoughts on adding fo's to my oils so I just do not do it. What I do, if using an FO I have not tested, I get my batter just to emulsion, separate out what I want for colors, but only color 1 to test the fo in. If it accelerates my emulsion badly, I quickly dump all back in the bucket and do a single color. Obliviously the color I tested. Sounds pesky but it works for me. My preference is to have my batter at emulsion before adding any fragrance.

My other method is what I mentioned above I put a few drop of fo in a small amount of lye to see how it behaves. If it lumps or separates I know it is a high possibility it will mis-behave and plan around it. I will not dump a lye fragrance mix in my oils that has separated out or is lumpy.

 

[Millie]

I'm tired this morning, but it seems like there are all sorts of conversations going on in this thread.

Zolveria - love this idea! Thanks for sharing it and posting your own results as well!

For one of the other conversations, I agree that fragrances do not need to be calculated into the superfat, but I also agree that they might change the superfat a smidge. Not by adding extra fat, but by reacting with lye and creating different molecules that are not soap salts. That is ok though, and not enough difference to worry about - although for some specific FOs/EOs you work with a lot, you might find you like to adjust your superfat by a percent, without really considering why.... I have a favorite recipe I use frequently, and there are some fragrances that do consistantly change the feel of the soap. Some for the better, and not just in superfat ways!

 

[Desederata]

I'm tired this morning, but it seems like there are all sorts of conversations going on in this thread.

Zolveria - love this idea! Thanks for sharing it and posting your own results as well!

For one of the other conversations, I agree that fragrances do not need to be calculated into the superfat, but I also agree that they might change the superfat a smidge. Not by adding extra fat, but by reacting with lye and creating different molecules that are not soap salts. That is ok though, and not enough difference to worry about - although for some specific FOs/EOs you work with a lot, you might find you like to adjust your superfat by a percent, without really considering why.... I have a favorite recipe I use frequently, and there are some fragrances that do consistantly change the feel of the soap. Some for the better, and not just in superfat ways!

could you give a few examples please? and how does it change the soap? I'm just learing how to make soap and am trying to learn as much as I can.

 

[cmzaha]

could you give a few examples please? and how does it change the soap? I'm just learning how to make soap and am trying to learn as much as I can.

Don't worry about it and just make soap. In my years of making soap I cannot say I have ever really ran across an fo or eo that actually changed my soap recipes noticeably. And do not add fo to your lye solution, better to add it to your oils or at light trace. There is a wealth of info in the Beginners forum to learn from. This is immaterial, of course that is just my opinion.

 

[SunRiseArts]

Like Lin, I seem to recall somebody on one of the forums doing this, too, but can't remember which forum.

I've added several different things to my lye water over the years, but never FO. I really like adding honey to my lye water because it takes all the orneriness right out of it (causes it to behave like a dream in my soap- no overheating, separation, leaking honey, etc...). I wonder if it would do the same kind of thing with FO? That would be cool if it did.

Does the person who gave you the advice add their accelerating FOs to lye water? I'd be curious to hear of his or her results.


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Deserata is you are in the learning fase. Stick to water only for now. I would.



No worries there- fragrance oils aren't true oils (triglycerides), so they won't saponify.


IrishLass

Now I am curious. What sort of things have you added to the lye?

It scares me to play with the lye. One time I read a post on another forum that a person thought it was adding regular tap water, and added hot water, and the thing exploded and made a hole in the ceiling. And had to called some type of agency and redo the kitchen.