Melt and pour just as good as cold process?

[artemis]

One question from the original post that I didn't see addressed (maybe I read to quickly) is: why do people say you have more control with CP. In case it's still needed-- the control you have with CP is what goes into making the soap itself. With MP, someone else has decided which oils (olive, coconut, etc) to use and much and this affects how the soap feels, how hard it is, how it lathers. With CP, you decide if you want to leave out the coconut oil, or if you want to use rice bran oil instead of olive, etc...

 

[Sharee]

Thank your for your replies!
So i read that mp dont last long as long in the shower. ., do the soap start to melt?
I read that mp tend to “ sweat”. Does that mean melt?
I dont want to give a mp bar made that starts melting on someones counter or bath..

One question from the original post that I didn't see addressed (maybe I read to quickly) is: why do people say you have more control with CP. In case it's still needed-- the control you have with CP is what goes into making the soap itself. With MP, someone else has decided which oils (olive, coconut, etc) to use and much and this affects how the soap feels, how hard it is, how it lathers. With CP, you decide if you want to leave out the coconut oil, or if you want to use rice bran oil instead of olive, etc...

I thought with mp you can add your own emollients anyway.

 

[MGM]

It is interesting that so many find m&p harsh. The bases we used made very nice feeling bars and I still use them often. PH is usually lower in m&p at least the bases my daughter used. I do know she tended to mix bases for some of her bars. I still use her marshmallow soaps that are just luxurious feeling and were made with m&p base.

I wonder if people are buying low-quality M&P from hobby stores? That might have something to do with it.

 

[Obsidian]

I thought with mp you can add your own emollients anyway.

Only a small amount, like a tsp per pound of base.
Do you know what else is in the m&p you are buying? Can you control the oils or surfactants used? That's what is meant that you can't control what is in it.

Its true that it doesn't last as long as cp and cp doesn't last as long as store bought.

It by nature is a bit softer then other soap and it simple washes away faster. If used with a proper soap dish and allowed to dry between uses it won't melt.
Sweating is where is attracts moisture from the air and it beads up on the soap like sweat on skin. Its particularly bad in high humidity.

I suggest you buy just a small amount of base, a pound or two and get familiar with it and how it behaves.

 

[jcandleattic]

Thank your for your replies!
So i read that mp dont last long as long in the shower. ., do the soap start to melt?
I read that mp tend to “ sweat”. Does that mean melt?
I dont want to give a mp bar made that starts melting on someones counter or bath..

As with all soap, if not stored in between uses properly, it will dissolve more quickly if not put in a draining soap dish. All soap M&P, CP. HP, etc, will dissolve more quickly if let to be set in water in between uses. It will all depend on how the user stores the soaps as to how long it will last.
Sweating means that the moisture/glycerin will sweat out of the soap, not that it will dissolve quicker. M&P is definitely more prone to sweating than other methods of soapmaking, but all can sweat.

IMO M&P soapmaking is not better or worse than any other method of soapmaking. It will just come down to what you decide you want to make, and what you want the outcome of your soap to be.
That being said, I personally have not found an M&P soap that my skin agrees with. It is much too drying and harsh for my skin and I need to slather with an after oil skin routine and lotion if I use it.

 

[Sharee]

I saw an organic base on Bramble Berry the ingredients are listed below..
If I was to make a bar of soap for somebody would I have to list all of these ingredients? That would be a biiiig label.
And are you actually required to list ingredients? I buy from someone currently from the flea market and she sells online and there is no labels on her stuff.

• Ingredients (Common Name): Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Palm Oil, Glycerine (kosher, of vegetable origin), Purified Water, Sodium Hydroxide (saponifying agent), Sorbitol (moisturizer), Propylene Glycol (of vegetable origin), Sorbitan oleate (emulsifier), Oat protein (conditioner)
• Ingredients (INCI Name): Organic Cocos Nucifera Oil, Organic Elaeis Guineensis Oil, Glycerin, Aqua/Water/Eau, Sodium Hydroxide, Sorbitol, Propylene Glycol, Sorbitan Oleate, Avena Sativa Protein Extract

 

[artemis]

I thought with mp you can add your own emollients anyway.

Yes, but... If my skin doesn't like oils used to make the soap base, then the tiny amount of shea butter you can add isn't really going to help that. Neither will honey or oatmeal.

 

[jcandleattic]

I saw an organic base on Bramble Berry the ingredients are listed below..
If I was to make a bar of soap for somebody would I have to list all of these ingredients? That would be a biiiig label.
And are you actually required to list ingredients? I buy from someone currently from the flea market and she sells online and there is no labels on her stuff.

• Ingredients (Common Name): Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Palm Oil, Glycerine (kosher, of vegetable origin), Purified Water, Sodium Hydroxide (saponifying agent), Sorbitol (moisturizer), Propylene Glycol (of vegetable origin), Sorbitan oleate (emulsifier), Oat protein (conditioner)
• Ingredients (INCI Name): Organic Cocos Nucifera Oil, Organic Elaeis Guineensis Oil, Glycerin, Aqua/Water/Eau, Sodium Hydroxide, Sorbitol, Propylene Glycol, Sorbitan Oleate, Avena Sativa Protein Extract

With M&P it's a grey area. Some M&P is considered cosmetic, which would mean that yes, you would have to list out all ingredients, including any ingredients you would add to the base.
IF the M&P base you purchase is not considered a cosmetic, and you are making no claims about it other than "it will get you clean" then, no, you wouldn't need to list the ingredients.
But you would have to make sure the base is not considered a cosmetic. I *think* organic type bases such as the one Bramble Berry carries is not considered a cosmetic, but I'm not sure.

I buy from someone currently from the flea market and she sells online and there is no labels on her stuff.

That doesn't mean she is doing it right.

 

[Sharee]

With M&P it's a grey area. Some M&P is considered cosmetic, which would mean that yes, you would have to list out all ingredients, including any ingredients you would add to the base.
IF the M&P base you purchase is not considered a cosmetic, and you are making no claims about it other than "it will get you clean" then, no, you wouldn't need to list the ingredients.
But you would have to make sure the base is not considered a cosmetic. I *think* organic type bases such as the one Bramble Berry carries is not considered a cosmetic, but I'm not sure.


That doesn't mean she is doing it right.

So if i understand correctly cosmetic grade list...otherwise...no. Do you know of any MPs that are non-cosmetic grade ?
Also would a cp be considered cosmetic ?

 

[jcandleattic]

So if i understand correctly cosmetic grade list...otherwise...no. Do you know of any MPs that are non-cosmetic grade ?

I don't know. You'd probably have to check with the supplier.

Also would a cp be considered cosmetic ?

This would depend on the claims you make. If you just claim it as soap, it's non-cosmetic.
If you claim it will make you look better, will make your skin feel better, claim anything other than it gets you clean, it then becomes either a cosmetic or a drug.

Of course, I just now see that you are in Canada, and I am specifically talking about the FDA regulations in the United States.
Canadian regulations and labeling laws might be different and I'm not sure what those laws are.

 

[Sharee]

Your right.. i did

I don't know. You'd probably have to check with the supplier.


This would depend on the claims you make. If you just claim it as soap, it's non-cosmetic.
If you claim it will make you look better, will make your skin feel better, claim anything other than it gets you clean, it then becomes either a cosmetic or a drug.

Of course, I just now see that you are in Canada, and I am specifically talking about the FDA regulations in the United States.
Canadian regulations and labeling laws might be different and I'm not sure what those laws are.

your right! I didnt think of that. Thank you guys so much! This website is amazing!
I want to try the daniel guys wave design. So pretty!

 

[Dahila]

Who though? Saffire Blue had the fire, Windy Point, Candora, Soap and More, and Voyageur are pricey. Am I secretly missing a gold mine? Not that I need more temptation...

Saffire blue is out , not way there is many more, with free shipping. Send me a pm so I put links for you

 

[Abeltran]

Here's my silly analogy of CP vs. MP... CP is like the blank canvas of soapmaking. You start with nothing but your raw ingredients and beginning from scratch, you make soap (ie: Paint your picture on that blank canvas). MP is like those beautiful coloring books you see, where the picture has already been drawn for you, but now it's up to you to color it in, use your creativity to tranform it into something beautifully unique. Which method is right for you just depends on what type of artist you'd like to be (blank canvas vs. starting with a foundation), and many times, the type of artist you choose to be, later evolves into exploring other methods! I started out making CP & RTCP, which evolved into piping & making soap frosting for hightop soaps, which evolved into CPOP (well, actually, CPOP was just something I always did with most of my "low top" batches), which evolved into HP, which evolved into SBHP/SJHP, which evolved into making my own MP bases (MP bases are made via HP, just with an added step), which evolved into MP... My point is, I truly love ALL methods of soapmaking (and employ all of them regularly), and even though each one is uniquely different from the others, the end result is the same: A great bar of handmade soap that you're proud of! That's what soapmaking is about, and there's no "better" or "superior" method... It's whatever gives you the end result that YOU want... A finished product that brings you joy & a feeling of accomplishment! That being said, I've never felt a MP soap that felt like CP, HP, etc. MP is uniquely MP, and there's nothing wrong with that! Even "LCP" ("Like Cold Process") MP bases, are still unmistakably MP, but I've met a lot of INCREDIBLE MP soap artists in my day who's soaps were positively FANTASTIC! And I can truly say that about ALL methods of soapmaking too... I've been lucky enough to have met some really amazing artisans who excell in their craft & preferred soapmaking method(s)! So my best advice would be to read up on all soapmaking methods (each have their own very unique processes), and find that one that speaks to the kind of soap artist that you want to be! Start there, but know that you're not limited to staying there if something else appeals to you later. Soak up as much knowledge as you possibly can, become a sponge, and surround yourself with fellow crafters who will take you under their wing (there's SO MANY of those wonderful folks out there!). Many begin with MP because it really IS great for beginners! All MP bases are NOT created equal though, and some work better, or are better suited, for different things. For example, the MP base I make & use for making smaller embeds that will adorn the tops of bigger CP bars, isn't the base I'd want to use for a full MP loaf, where I may need it to stay more fluid & workable for a longer period of time). So if you decide MP is the best starting point for you, experiment with different bases until you find the one(s) that works best for your specific needs, and produce the results you want. And then get ready for the addiction, because HOLY MOLY, does it becomes ADDICTING! Best of luck to you on your soapmaking journey! You'll do great at whatever you set your mind to!

 

[Sharee]

Here's my silly analogy of CP vs. MP... CP is like the blank canvas of soapmaking. You start with nothing but your raw ingredients and beginning from scratch, you make soap (ie: Paint your picture on that blank canvas). MP is like those beautiful coloring books you see, where the picture has already been drawn for you, but now it's up to you to color it in, use your creativity to tranform it into something beautifully unique. Which method is right for you just depends on what type of artist you'd like to be (blank canvas vs. starting with a foundation), and many times, the type of artist you choose to be, later evolves into exploring other methods! I started out making CP & RTCP, which evolved into piping & making soap frosting for hightop soaps, which evolved into CPOP (well, actually, CPOP was just something I always did with most of my "low top" batches), which evolved into HP, which evolved into SBHP/SJHP, which evolved into making my own MP bases (MP bases are made via HP, just with an added step), which evolved into MP... My point is, I truly love ALL methods of soapmaking (and employ all of them regularly), and even though each one is uniquely different from the others, the end result is the same: A great bar of handmade soap that you're proud of! That's what soapmaking is about, and there's no "better" or "superior" method... It's whatever gives you the end result that YOU want... A finished product that brings you joy & a feeling of accomplishment! That being said, I've never felt a MP soap that felt like CP, HP, etc. MP is uniquely MP, and there's nothing wrong with that! Even "LCP" ("Like Cold Process") MP bases, are still unmistakably MP, but I've met a lot of INCREDIBLE MP soap artists in my day who's soaps were positively FANTASTIC! And I can truly say that about ALL methods of soapmaking too... I've been lucky enough to have met some really amazing artisans who excell in their craft & preferred soapmaking method(s)! So my best advice would be to read up on all soapmaking methods (each have their own very unique processes), and find that one that speaks to the kind of soap artist that you want to be! Start there, but know that you're not limited to staying there if something else appeals to you later. Soak up as much knowledge as you possibly can, become a sponge, and surround yourself with fellow crafters who will take you under their wing (there's SO MANY of those wonderful folks out there!). Many begin with MP because it really IS great for beginners! All MP bases are NOT created equal though, and some work better, or are better suited, for different things. For example, the MP base I make & use for making smaller embeds that will adorn the tops of bigger CP bars, isn't the base I'd want to use for a full MP loaf, where I may need it to stay more fluid & workable for a longer period of time). So if you decide MP is the best starting point for you, experiment with different bases until you find the one(s) that works best for your specific needs, and produce the results you want. And then get ready for the addiction, because HOLY MOLY, does it becomes ADDICTING! Best of luck to you on your soapmaking journey! You'll do great at whatever you set your mind to!

Thank you guys for taking me under your wing! I was in a bad accident a few years ago..lost my nursing career. This is something now that I actually feel some passion back. I’ve been listening to you guys for three days studying on YouTube and wandering around Michael’s . I’ve always had a good imagination and I for art. I already have the name and I am going to get it trademarked. Knowing I can make something beautiful with my hands and to be able to give that to somebody AND maybe make a business out of it..is what ive really needed these last few years. Thanks everyone for your kindness and generosity.

 

[cedarstar]

I saw an organic base on Bramble Berry the ingredients are listed below..
If I was to make a bar of soap for somebody would I have to list all of these ingredients? That would be a biiiig label.
And are you actually required to list ingredients? I buy from someone currently from the flea market and she sells online and there is no labels on her stuff.

• Ingredients (Common Name): Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Palm Oil, Glycerine (kosher, of vegetable origin), Purified Water, Sodium Hydroxide (saponifying agent), Sorbitol (moisturizer), Propylene Glycol (of vegetable origin), Sorbitan oleate (emulsifier), Oat protein (conditioner)
• Ingredients (INCI Name): Organic Cocos Nucifera Oil, Organic Elaeis Guineensis Oil, Glycerin, Aqua/Water/Eau, Sodium Hydroxide, Sorbitol, Propylene Glycol, Sorbitan Oleate, Avena Sativa Protein Extract

In Canada soap is a cosmetic so yes, you have to label all ingredients you use, including all the ingredients in your colourant. It can't be just mica or red, etc. You could choose to list either the common name or the INCI. If you choose to label using the common name then your label ingredients must also be listed in french. The front of your label; product name, directions, etc must also be bilingual. Here is a good place to start. https://www.canada.ca/en/health-can...dustry-professionals/labelling-cosmetics.html I too started with melt and pour and went to cp. Now I am hooked. I find my cp bars to be much nicer on the skin than melt and pour. Also, if someone at a flea market was selling without a label and/or sells online then she is going against Canadian laws and it will be a matter of time before it catches up to her. All cosmetic products sold in Canada along with being labelled correctly must be registered with Health Canada. A cosmetic notification for must be submitted for every product. It's a lot of work but worth it. https://www.canada.ca/en/health-can...-safety/cosmetics/notification-cosmetics.html
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-can...tly-asked-questions-cosmetic-regulations.html

 

[Dahila]

Cedarstar you covered it all. However most people I know soapmakers they do not bother. We also have A Canadian guild and membership and insurance is very affordable. The discounts with every supplier in Canada is also something not to overlook

 

[Relle]

Thank you guys for taking me under your wing! I was in a bad accident a few years ago..lost my nursing career. This is something now that I actually feel some passion back. I’ve been listening to you guys for three days studying on YouTube and wandering around Michael’s . I’ve always had a good imagination and I for art. I already have the name and I am going to get it trademarked. Knowing I can make something beautiful with my hands and to be able to give that to somebody AND maybe make a business out of it..is what ive really needed these last few years. Thanks everyone for your kindness and generosity.

Sharee if you intend selling you might like to read this link
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/are-you-ready-to-sell-your-soap.16002/

 

[artemis]

So if i understand correctly, cosmetic grade list...otherwise...no.

In my opinion, whether it's required or not, listing ingredients is the responsible thing to do. As a potential customer, I want to know what is in that soap so I know I won't have a reaction to anything. Some people want to see a list to know if will work with their lifestyle (vegan, palm-free, etc).

 

[cedarstar]

In my opinion, whether it's required or not, listing ingredients is the responsible thing to do. As a potential customer, I want to know what is in that soap so I know I won't have a reaction to anything. Some people want to see a list to know if will work with their lifestyle (vegan, palm-free, etc).

I agree completely. I would not purchase a product without knowing ingredients. In Canada essential oils only have to be listed as "parfum", the same as fragrance oils and after learning about essential oil safety I find that this can be dangerous to the consumer. If I use essential oils I label each one and then label fo as parfum.

 

[cerelife]

Per the title of your thread "Melt and pour just as good as cold process":
As other have said it's really a matter of personal preference and your own definition of 'good' soap.
I noticed in the replies that someone mentioned art as an analogy of the difference between the two styles and someone a few years ago used baking as an analogy on a similar thread, and my thoughts are along a similar line.
M&P is 'paint by numbers' while CP is starting with a blank canvas.
M&P is boxed cake mix while CP is making a cake from scratch.
There's nothing wrong with doing it either way, and you can most certainly dress up that 'cake from a box' and make it totally gorgeous!
You mentioned that you just don't understand the popularity of CP when you can purchase 'natural' MP bases.
I can only speak for myself, but anything that I offer as my own 'creation' will be just that: something that I personally created from scratch.
I love taking those "Wine and Art" classes where they walk you through blending your oil paints and applying them to your pre-sketched canvas AND they encourage you to take artistic license to 'make it your own', but it's still a pre-sketched canvas.
My mother gave me a fantastic recipe for boxed cake mix mixed with a ton of other stuff that tastes exactly like a 'from-scratch' cake from the bakery - but the fact remains that I didn't create the recipe for the cake mix itself.
Does that make these things bad? Of course not. But they aren't mine.
A huge part of the satisfaction that I get from making soap and having my own business is the knowledge that I created these soap recipes!!