Mashed Potatoes?!?

[LazyH]

Hello, I just tried my first batch of soap, cold processed with the following ratios of oils and NaOH: (I used these amounts in ounces if that helps at all)
NaOH: 1.82
Castor Oil: .75
Stearic Acid: 4
Palm Oil: 4
Coconut Oil: 3.75

Well, the instant the lye touched the oil it became like mashed potatoes and when I was done mixing as much as I could, there was a bit of a puddle of liquid at the bottom of the bowl that would not mix in with the rest of the batch regardless of my mixing enthusiasm. This liquid later turned out to be lye (to my tongues dismay). Does anyone know exactly what happened to this batch, could it have saponified too quickly and locked out some of the lye, or was there too much lye, inaccurate recipe or scale perhaps, or something else I should look for? Wet finger over edge of soap comes back zap happy.

 

[Cookie]

How much water did you use? The lye amount looks ok according to soapcalc

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

It's the stearic acid - it is pretty much impossible to use in cold process is any real amounts. Hot process is okay, but as you saw when you add the lye to it you get a solid almost instantly.

Where did you get the recipe and process from?

 

[Cookie]

Is that soap on a stick then?

 

[DeeAnna]

Cookie: Yep, that's soap on a stick.

"...I just tried my first batch of soap, cold processed..."

Lazy H: Are you following someone else's "beginner" recipe? That sure isn't a beginner recipe in my opinion -- or even a good recipe to make a decent bath soap. The only thing I can think of is you were attempting to leap into making a shave soap without having done enough homework.

There is no way this recipe can be made with a cold process method, as you found out the hard way. Stearic acid is NOT a fat -- it is a fatty acid. Big difference. Lye reacts instantly with fatty acids. If you were determined to make that recipe as written and you had asked my opinion, I would have recommended you start the saponification with just the fats -- coconut oil, castor, and palm. At medium trace with the soap batter about 160 deg F, add the melted stearic to the soap batter and stir like crazy. At that point, the soap will instantly firm up due to the stearic reacting with the lye. Finish the recipe with a short cook as one would do for a hot process soap until the soap is zap free.

Next, do NOT ever directly taste any soap or any fluids from soap if you have any doubt about that soap. If you want to zap test in a case like this, touch your fingertip very lightly to the area you want to test. Very, very lightly touch fingertip to tongue. If it's zappy, you'll get a zap, but you won't get burned. If it's zappy, rinse mouth with fresh, cold water until any alkaline taste is gone. Don't swallow -- spit. I use this method for the first zap test I do for any new soap, whether it looks perfectly fine or not.

 

[Cactuslily]

Isn't stearic acid a wax? What properties does it bring to the CP party?

 

[Obsidian]

Nope, its a fatty acid. Its often used for extra hardening but it also helps stabilize lather especially in specialty soaps like shaving or cream. I think you can use around 2% in CP before it becomes a problem with seizing.

 

[pamielynn]

I don't make shaving soap, but with that much stearic, wouldn't you want to use KOH?

 

[DeeAnna]

"Isn't stearic acid a wax? "

What Obsidian said.

"What properties does it bring to the CP party? "

If you add commercial stearic acid to a soap recipe, it will create palmitic and stearic soaps. A bar soap made with high stearic and palmitic will be physically hard. These soaps contribute dense longlasting lather and this is desirable for a shave soap. Stearic and palmitic soaps have low solubility, so a bar soap high in stearic and palmitic will not lather easily and the bar will be long lasting.

High amounts of stearic and palmitic soap are overkill for a bath soap that needs to have a balance between longevity and free lathering. Far better to build in the longevity by using fats that have higher % of palmitic and stearic if you can -- that would be lard, tallow, palm, and many butters.

"wouldn't you want to use KOH?"

Most people would use all KOH or part KOH and part NaOH, but some shaving soaps are made with all NaOH too.

 

[LazyH]

Cookie: Yep, that's soap on a stick.

"...I just tried my first batch of soap, cold processed..."

Lazy H: Are you following someone else's "beginner" recipe? That sure isn't a beginner recipe in my opinion -- or even a good recipe to make a decent bath soap. The only thing I can think of is you were attempting to leap into making a shave soap without having done enough homework.

Yeah, I do have a bad habit of doing that, you hit the nail on the head with what I was attempting, following a friends recipe he managed to make cold process somehow. I always learn best by diving straight in, sometimes getting it wrong but learning through the whole thing.

There is no way this recipe can be made with a cold process method, as you found out the hard way. Stearic acid is NOT a fat -- it is a fatty acid. Big difference. Lye reacts instantly with fatty acids. If you were determined to make that recipe as written and you had asked my opinion, I would have recommended you start the saponification with just the fats -- coconut oil, castor, and palm. At medium trace with the soap batter about 160 deg F, add the melted stearic to the soap batter and stir like crazy. At that point, the soap will instantly firm up due to the stearic reacting with the lye. Finish the recipe with a short cook as one would do for a hot process soap until the soap is zap free.

OK, so is there any way of saving the soap through remelting or anything like that?

Next, do NOT ever directly taste any soap or any fluids from soap if you have any doubt about that soap. If you want to zap test in a case like this, touch your fingertip very lightly to the area you want to test. Very, very lightly touch fingertip to tongue. If it's zappy, you'll get a zap, but you won't get burned. If it's zappy, rinse mouth with fresh, cold water until any alkaline taste is gone. Don't swallow -- spit. I use this method for the first zap test I do for any new soap, whether it looks perfectly fine or not.

Yep, I did the same but put some water on my finger first and swirled it around so it was a bit diluted, lye burns on the tongue don't sound too tasty.

I don't make shaving soap, but with that much stearic, wouldn't you want to use KOH?

I'm hoping my KOH will arrive today if fed ex tracking is accurate, I simply wanted to try a small batch to see if something could easily go wrong before I mess up a larger batch. I've worked on some soaps with my mother when I was a lot younger but they were a lot simpler recipes.

I'll try either rebatching the mashed potatoes if possible, and if not try a hop process once the KOH arrives and post my results. Thank you for your comments, I greatly appreciate your help.

 

[Obsidian]

If you use KOH, you will have a soft soap. KOH is for liquid/cream/soft soaps, NaOH is for hard bar soap. What kind of soap are you trying to make? We can help you with a better beginner recipe.

 

[LazyH]

If you use KOH, you will have a soft soap. KOH is for liquid/cream/soft soaps, NaOH is for hard bar soap. What kind of soap are you trying to make? We can help you with a better beginner recipe.

Like deeanna said, I am attempting to make a shaving soap. Thank you for the offer, would perhaps a similar soap without the stearic work better or would you suggest something different all together? My final recipe would use a mix of sodium and potassium lye, one part sodium to two parts potassium probably. I've tried both tallow and olive oil soaps with sodium lye with my mother but this is my first attempt unaided, that's when I usually learn the most about what I'm doing.

For mixing the two, I was going to weigh the oils for one part sodium and two parts potassium as if making two batches, to ensure there's no oil or lye left unreacted. Would this work or does anyone know of a calculator that can to part KOH and part NaOH? Soap calc doesn't work and the calcs that everyone else has suggested at the shaving forums are out of business.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Have you read the shaving threads in the cp forum? There is one on the first page at the moment - it's huge, but it is the basis that you need.

 

[IrishLass]

Here's another long, very informative shaving thread that deals with using a mix of KOH and NaOH that will answer just about any question you might have about the subject and what calculator to use, etc...:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=47002&highlight=croap

I myself have fallen in love with making shaving 'croaps' with a mix of 64% KOH and 36% NaOH via the hot-process method. They're nice and firm enough to hold their shape, but still soft/pliable enough to press into whatever kind of shaving mug one might have on hand, which eliminates the need for buying special shaving soap molds.

I just pour my hot soap batter into whatever clean, plastic microwavable bowls I have on hand from restaurant take-out, and when it has cooled and firmed up, I divide it into ball-like portions of equal weight (4 oz. or so). When hubby needs more soap, I just smoosh one of the portions up like one would smoosh clay, and then I press it into my hubby's shaving mug for a perfect 'custom' fit.

Croaps are beautiful thing!

IrishLasss

 

[DeeAnna]

Read the shave soap threads per The Gent's suggestion. I can tell you're well on your way to reinventing the wheel from a few of the things you're saying. A few hours of homework will save a lot of time spent investigating blind alleys.

"... I was going to weigh the oils for one part sodium and two parts potassium as if making two batches, to ensure there's no oil or lye left unreacted...."

You really don't need to do that unless you have other reasons for doing this kind of split method. Just put everything together and make soap. The lyes will do a fine job without micromanagement.

"...does anyone know of a calculator that can to part KOH and part NaOH? Soap calc doesn't work..."

The Summerbeemeadow calc lets you specify KOH and NaOH.

And, yes, you really can calculate a 2-lye recipe with Soapcalc. Do it like this:

Calculate the exact same soap recipe twice. The ~only~ difference between the two versions is your choice of lye -- use NaOH as the lye for the first version and KOH as the lye for the second version. Use the same fats, the same superfat %, etc. for both versions -- just the lye is different. TIP: For soapcalc, be sure to put a check mark in the box for 90% KOH purity.

For the first version, the recipe calculator will tell you how much NaOH that you would need to use if you wanted NaOH as ALL of the lye. In the second version, it will tell you how much KOH you would need to use if KOH was ALL of the lye.

Next figure the actual amount of KOH and NaOH actually needed -- If you want a mixture of 40% NaOH and 60% KOH for the recipe, multiply the NaOH weight times 0.40. And multiply the KOH weight times 0.60. This will give you the correct weights of each lye to mix together to make the recipe with 40% NaOH and 60% KOH.

 

[LazyH]

So in terms of this batch, should I try rebatching to help the stearic and lye combine or should I just throw it out?

Read the shave soap threads per The Gent's suggestion. I can tell you're well on your way to reinventing the wheel from a few of the things you're saying. A few hours of homework will save a lot of time spent investigating blind alleys.

Yeah, I have a bad habit of doing that with far more than just soaps, but at the same time you can learn so much more about what you're trying to do than what's just on the surface. Starting from the ground up, overthinking, and diving in too quickly are part of how I created my hybrid heat treat for my knives and straight razors, similar to isothermal heat treatmenst for those of you who may be interested in bladesmithing. A lot of people said "just keep it simple and follow what other's have done", and that works for most people, but for me I need a deeper, more intuitive understanding of the things that most people don't even care about that I find I learn best by diving right in and ignoring all common sense (within reason).

And, yes, you really can calculate a 2-lye recipe with Soapcalc. Do it like this:

Calculate the exact same soap recipe twice. The ~only~ difference between the two versions is your choice of lye -- use NaOH as the lye for the first version and KOH as the lye for the second version. Use the same fats, the same superfat %, etc. for both versions -- just the lye is different.

Sorry, that's what I meant to say by "measuring as if for two batches", that way I can accurately use both lye solutions.

TIP: For soapcalc, be sure to put a check mark in the box for 90% KOH purity.

I almost missed that when I started calculating for my final prototype soap, but I noticed a little 90% sign by the label while checking my shipping time and thought "oops, that might be relevant to my calculations". Thank you for pointing that out to me though.

Thanks for the other soap calculator as well, I'll check that out as soon as I get time.

Here's another long, very informative shaving thread that deals with using a mix of KOH and NaOH that will answer just about any question you might have about the subject and what calculator to use, etc...:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=47002&highlight=croap

I myself have fallen in love with making shaving 'croaps' with a mix of 64% KOH and 36% NaOH via the hot-process method. They're nice and firm enough to hold their shape, but still soft/pliable enough to press into whatever kind of shaving mug one might have on hand, which eliminates the need for buying special shaving soap molds.

Awesome, thanks a bunch. Do you use tallow in your recipe? I was considering two recipes, one with tallow and the other with palm oil (the one I tried here), though I've heard tallow makes a harder soap bar.

Another possible idea I had (yeah, you're probably rolling your eyes at me already) was making a larger batch of soap, then remelting into some shaving bowls I turned on my wood lathe. Is there anything I might need to worry about in terms of the soap sitting in direct contact with the wood, or different kinds of wood that might react with the soap (oily woods, tar filled woods, etc?) or am I diving in too quick again?

Another thank you to everybody for your patience with me.

 

[LazyH]

Success!!!

Well, I just whipped up another small batch, using the hot process adding the melted stearic after trace, and it started mushing up really fast, but became a bit softer and quite a bit more translucent than my failed batch. Kept mixing for about 5-10 minutes after, dumped the resulting goo into a plastic cup, then started getting a little over eager again. First, I jumped straight to the zap test, no zappy-zappy!!! Then I grabbed a badger hair knot I use for brushes and whipped up a bit of a lather with what was left in the double boiler, and it worked!!! The picture shows the lather, nearly unchanged as far as my eyes can tell, after about 53 minutes.

 

[LazyH]

After a bit of experimenting with different amounts and kinds of oils, I think i found my ideal mix. Not quite as "immortal" of a lather, but really friendly to skin, I think a good place to start trying out different additives such as colloidal oatmeal or bentonite clay (since I already have bentonite but not kaolin like some suggest). I'll post my results when I'm done. Thanks for all the help and helpful links, the straight razor forums don't have quite as much info as there is here.