Mashed potato phase after cooking

[Tee]

Hi! I made my 3rd batch of liquid soap yesterday in the crockpot. I cooked it for 10 hours..yes 10 hours because it never gelled. It turned to the mashed potato phase and stopped. I did not mix to the taffy stage. I blended with stick blender until it was thick like pudding . Then stirred manually on and off for 45 minutes Then cooked.
Today it ZAPPED!!
I've attached the amount of oils used which was 15 oz
KOH 5.93 oz (8% excess, at least that was the goal for -8%SF

Water-17.80 oz
Is there any saving this batch?

 

[Arimara]

What lye calculator did you use? 10 hours is excessive. Why do you want a lye heavy liquid soap anyway?

 

[lsg]

You might let it set for a couple of days more and then test it again. Double check your recipe and if you left something out, you might try mixing in that oil and cooking the paste until it is mashed potato stage again.

 

[Obsidian]

If you used -8 SF, won't it always zap until its diluted or neutralized?

 

[Tee]

What lye calculator did you use? 10 hours is excessive. Why do you want a lye heavy liquid soap anyway?

I didnt use a calc. I used amanda Gail's process to calculate. And yes 10 hours us excessive.. that was my point.

What lye calculator did you use? 10 hours is excessive. Why do you want a lye heavy liquid soap anyway?

I got the info for lye excess from Amanda Gail's site here
https://www.lovinsoap.com/2010/09/liquid-soap-lets-formulate-a-recipe/

 

[DeeAnna]

Your recipe printout is a little confusing. Is this the blend of fats you used --

Avocado Oil 10.%
Almond Oil, Sweet 12.0%
Coconut Oil 14.0%
Castor Bean Oil 20.0%
Safflower 21.0%
Olive Oil 23.0%
Total 100%

As in you used zero % jojoba, correct? I don't understand the "15" above the olive oil in your list of fats -- is that number there for a reason?

If the recipe is as I'm guessing -- Based on 15 oz total weight of fats, a -8% superfat should require 3.2 oz KOH at 100% purity. And 3.6 oz KOH at 90% purity.

KOH at 5.93 oz is a -80% excess alkali, based on 90% KOH purity. I'm not sure I'd try to save this batch -- it's going to be tough to neutralize that much alkali and still have useful soap in the end.

I can see part of a note "multiply KOH x oils by...." in your photo. That makes me wonder how you are performing your calculations.

***

Liquid soap making is about cooking until saponification is done. It's not about cooking a long time with the hope the soap will jump through all the visual hoops that other people say it should jump through. If the paste got to a stable trace and even to a "mashed potatoes" appearance, but didn't do a "vaseline" stage, that's fine. Vaseline and applesauce and mashed potatoes aren't important. Stop cooking at stable trace. Turn off the heat. Walk away. Give it time. It will get there on its own.

The soap is done if you formulate with a slight superfat when a zap test gives you a "no zap" result. If you prefer to use a neutralization method to make the soap, you'll need to learn what a "light zap" from slight lye heaviness feels like compared to a "full-on zap" when there is a lot of excess alkali present. Or learn to do a titration test for free alkalinity.

The phenolphthalein method many "neutralization soapers" use -- where they put a few drops of phenolphthalein solution onto a dab of soap paste -- is a false test. This "test" is telling you more about the reduced water content of soap that's been cooked for hours. It tells you nothing about the actual pH or alkalinity of the soap.

 

[Kiti Williams]

Your recipe printout is a little confusing. Is this the blend of fats you used --

Avocado Oil 10.%
Almond Oil, Sweet 12.0%
Coconut Oil 14.0%
Castor Bean Oil 20.0%
Safflower 21.0%
Olive Oil 23.0%
Total 100%

As in you used zero % jojoba, correct? I don't understand the "15" above the olive oil in your list of fats -- is that number there for a reason?

If the recipe is as I'm guessing -- Based on 15 oz total weight of fats, a -8% superfat should require 3.2 oz KOH at 100% purity. And 3.6 oz KOH at 90% purity.

KOH at 5.93 oz is a -80% excess alkali, based on 90% KOH purity. I'm not sure I'd try to save this batch -- it's going to be tough to neutralize that much alkali and still have useful soap in the end.

I can see part of a note "multiply KOH x oils by...." in your photo. That makes me wonder how you are performing your calculations.

***

Liquid soap making is about cooking until saponification is done. It's not about cooking a long time with the hope the soap will jump through all the visual hoops that other people say it should jump through. If the paste got to a stable trace and even to a "mashed potatoes" appearance, but didn't do a "vaseline" stage, that's fine. Vaseline and applesauce and mashed potatoes aren't important. Stop cooking at stable trace. Turn off the heat. Walk away. Give it time. It will get there on its own.

The soap is done if you formulate with a slight superfat when a zap test gives you a "no zap" result. If you prefer to use a neutralization method to make the soap, you'll need to learn what a "light zap" from slight lye heaviness feels like compared to a "full-on zap" when there is a lot of excess alkali present. Or learn to do a titration test for free alkalinity.

The phenolphthalein method many "neutralization soapers" use -- where they put a few drops of phenolphthalein solution onto a dab of soap paste -- is a false test. This "test" is telling you more about the reduced water content of soap that's been cooked for hours. It tells you nothing about the actual pH or alkalinity of the soap.

Dang girl! You are a walking encyclopedia of soap wisdom!

 

[DeeAnna]

Thanks, @Kiti Williams -- I used to be what's called a chemical process engineer where I was paid to analyze, troubleshoot, and improve chemical manufacturing processes. I adapted those skills into being a math and science professor at a community college. I still do a fair bit of process engineering and math/science teaching, but more often nowadays I do it for free (like here). So I'm a serious geek ... and, yes, a bit of a walking encyclopedia.

 

[Arimara]

Irishlass has a liquid soap recipe that is much safer and easier than the one you tried. Additionally, we strongly advise all to use a soap calculator to double check any recipe they find on the interwebs. You can use the forum's own calculator where many of use have tested to help assure its accuracy.

Irish's thread
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/my-creamy-cocoa-shea-gls-tutorial.57974/

Soap Calculator
https://soapmakingfriend.com

 

[DeeAnna]

Irish Lass wrote another tutorial that I think is an easier to follow introduction to the cold process, superfatted method of liquid soap making. Irish Lass's other tutorial: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/soaping-101-liquid-soapmaking-video.46114/ see posts 8 and 9

My only caution about her tutorial is to NOT use the method of dissolving KOH in hot glycerin as she describes in the first part of Step 3. Read and follow the directions in RED toward the end of Step 3 where she explains how to dissolve KOH in room temperature water.

Also Susie provided another good tutorial on the superfatted CP method for making liquid soap. I think Susie's contribution is under-appreciated. Susie's tutorial: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/cold-process-liquid-soap.49852/

Another good resource: https://milesawayfarm.wordpress.com/2015/04/22/liquid-soapmaking-where-to-start/

 

[Tee]

Your recipe printout is a little confusing. Is this the blend of fats you used --
Hi DeeAnna, yes this is my oils. The printout is a list of oils I use and I just plug in the percentage I want to use, in the recipe, I did not use jojoba. Therefore it's at 0%
Avocado Oil 10.%
Almond Oil, Sweet 12.0%
Coconut Oil 14.0%
Castor Bean Oil 20.0%
Safflower 21.0%
Olive Oil 23.0%
Total 100%

As in you used zero % jojoba, correct? I don't understand the "15" above the olive oil in your list of fats -- is that number there for a reason? The 15 is the batch size in ounces, it's for my calculations of oil amounts

If the recipe is as I'm guessing -- Based on 15 oz total weight of fats, a -8% superfat should require 3.2 oz KOH at 100% purity. And 3.6 oz KOH at 90% purity.
I ran this thru a couple of soap calcs earlier and added additional oils for the 5.93 oz of koh
The batch is now translucent. Haven't tested for clarity or ph as of yet

KOH at 5.93 oz is a -80% excess alkali, based on 90% KOH purity. I'm not sure I'd try to save this batch -- it's going to be tough to neutralize that much alkali and still have useful soap in the end.

I can see part of a note "multiply KOH x oils by...." in your photo. That makes me wonder how you are performing your calculations.
I used amanda Gail's calculation directions in the link I posted. She indicates "Multiply the KOH value by the amount of oil in your recipe. Let’s use grams so we can be as accurate as possible."
***

Liquid soap making is about cooking until saponification is done. It's not about cooking a long time with the hope the soap will jump through all the visual hoops that other people say it should jump through. If the paste got to a stable trace and even to a "mashed potatoes" appearance, but didn't do a "vaseline" stage, that's fine. Vaseline and applesauce and mashed potatoes aren't important. Stop cooking at stable trace. Turn off the heat. Walk away. Give it time. It will get there on its own. This is great info! Thank you!!!

The soap is done if you formulate with a slight superfat when a zap test gives you a "no zap" result. If you prefer to use a neutralization method to make the soap, you'll need to learn what a "light zap" from slight lye heaviness feels like compared to a "full-on zap" when there is a lot of excess alkali present. Or learn to do a titration test for free alkalinity.

The phenolphthalein method many "neutralization soapers" use -- where they put a few drops of phenolphthalein solution onto a dab of soap paste -- is a false test. This "test" is telling you more about the reduced water content of soap that's been cooked for hours. It tells you nothing about the actual pH or alkalinity of the soap.

Irishlass has a liquid soap recipe that is much safer and easier than the one you tried. Additionally, we strongly advise all to use a soap calculator to double check any recipe they find on the interwebs. You can use the forum's own calculator where many of use have tested to help assure its accuracy.

Irish's thread
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/my-creamy-cocoa-shea-gls-tutorial.57974/

Soap Calculator
https://soapmakingfriend.com

Thank you for this info!!!

 

[Arimara]

I'm glad you corrected (you did correct your soap, right?) your soap. It should be much better and safer for your skin now. I get that some people don't want to risk a layer of oils in their liquid soap but I think if you want that 5% superfat, get some polysorbate80 and save some headache.