Major Headaches with FO's

[z00100]

This is going to be a bit long winded, so please bear with me on this one.

I've been experimenting with Soap with the eventual goal of starting a family business selling soap.

I'm based in the middle east and as you can imagine finding ingredients is absolutely a big headache! Even if you find ingredients they are priced astronomically. For example, I'm paying right now about $20 for a 500Gram bottle of Sodium Hydroxide. I've found a source for 1/2 that amount but I have to buy 10 Kilos at a go. Just part of the fun making soap in the middle east!

Finding exotic oils is also a big headache here. I can find Castor, Almond, Sweet Almond pretty easily, but they are almost $10 for a 200-300 gram bottle. Oils such as Shea, Macadamia and other exotics are impossible to find. I'd have to import them, and it would only make economic sense if I imported mass quantities.

I'm keeping things simple right now, using only Olive, Palm and Coconut. I've made several batches using only 3 ingredients and the soap was wonderful. I'm totally blown away at how good it is. I've extended this experimentation to adding some additives such as crushed dried rosemary, green tea, turmeric and even ground coffee. I've successfully also made coconut milk soap and it was divine.

With this down pat, I reached a crossroad in my experimentation. Either I start of with colorants and then go to fragrances, or go fragrances first. Since I plan to give some to family and friends, I decided it was prudent to experiment with fragrances and deal with colorants at a later stage.

The local souks here are full of fragrance shops and dealers. The staple here is the Arabic Aouds but I don't want to incorporate those right now. I found a wholesaler of perfumes who has concentrates in single scents, such as grape, strawberry, pineapple, coconut, banana, vanilla, apple and mango.

Since this shop was very far, I decided to buy bulk quantities. I ended up buying 500Ml of each scent and it cost me $200.

The problems started the next day. My soap calculator tells me that I should use .5oz per lb of oils. I did that and instant seize. It turned into a rock!!

Second day I used 1/2 that amount, guess what, same deal. I made a test batch of 16oz of Oils with one teaspoon only and it worked, however, the smell was barely detectable. I proceeded to add another teaspoon and it instantly siezed again.

Today I tried a different approach. I made 16 oz of oils and blended them to a light trace. At that stage I mixed .5oz of FO with 2oz of Olive (as a carrier/diluting agent/superfatting agent) and mixed it into the lightly traced mixture. One super fast blast of the stick blender later, siezed as hard as a rock!

I'm running out of options now and need help.

What could the problem be?

Is the FO unsuitable for soapmaking?
He said it's oil based and there is no alcohol. I do believe him. However, I don't know what kind of carrier oil the FO has. Is it mineral oil or some other synthetic?

It would be a shame to scrap all that oil I bought. I could repurpose it in a potpourri and in a diffuser, but it's a lot of FO I have and this would last me 2 lifetimes!

Please help!

 

[Genny]

It sounds like what you already suspect, there's something wrong with the fo's.

Have you tried more than one of the fo's?

 

[z00100]

I've tried all the FO's and the result is the same.

My personal research leads me to believe that:

1. Either the FO is too concentrated
2. The carrier oil for the fragrance is not "compatible" with soap making

By the way, just for info, the scent shops here use this FO, mix it with Alcohol and bottle it as body sprays, so this is pretty concentrated stuff.

A drop on my hand makes the scent stick for hours and through repeated hand washing.

It sounds like what you already suspect, there's something wrong with the fo's.

Have you tried more than one of the fo's?

 

[Hazel]

I found a wholesaler of perfumes who has concentrates in single scents, such as grape, strawberry, pineapple, coconut, banana, vanilla, apple and mango.

I'm just guessing but is it possible these oils really aren't intended for use on the body? I've read there are two types of fragrance oils - those formulated to be safe for the skin and those that are formulated for candles, potpourri, etc. Supposedly the ones that are formulated for candles, etc won't be harmful to the skin but they may be made from a lower grade of oils. Is there anyway you could find out what the oil is that has been used for the fragrance base?

Also, what temperature are you mixing your ingredients at when you combine them all? Sometimes mixing everything at a lower temperature will help with a finicky oil.

If that doesn't help, you could try a hot process batch and add the FO at the end of the cook. This might work but the resulting soap isn't as smooth looking as CP batches.

Have you tried adding the FO and not using the stickblender? Maybe blend until you get to a light trace, add the FO and then use a spoon to slowly mix the FO through the batch. This might give you some time to be able to pour the soap into a mold.

I wish I could help you more but I don't know what else to suggest.

 

[judymoody]

I'm so sorry you're having this trouble.

I can't say the reason but it sounds like the FOs are not suitable for cold process soap making.

It might be more cost effective to order on line from Europe or the UK, even when shipping is taken into account?

I wish I had a better answer for you.

 

[z00100]

I'm so sorry you're having this trouble.

I can't say the reason but it sounds like the FOs are not suitable for cold process soap making.

It might be more cost effective to order on line from Europe or the UK, even when shipping is taken into account?

I wish I had a better answer for you.

That's an option now for me, any good sources for FO and EO's in UK/Europe?

 

[IrishLass]

I don't live in the UK, but I've heard very good reviews about this UK supplier: http://www.gracefruit.com/

Many fragrance oils can be tricky- even those that are formulated to be skin and soap-safe. Many (but not all) spicy fragrances and floral fragrances are especially notorious for causing soap to accelerate or seize. One of the fragrance components infamously known for accelerating trace or causing seizes in soap is eugenol. From what I've been able to glean, eugenol is naturally present in the oils of clove, cinnamon, nutmeg, basil and bay leaf, and it is a commonly used raw material in the manufacture of fragrance oil. Not every fragrance oil contains it, but plenty enough do.

You can try the following trick (I learnt it from another soaper on another forum who soaps with clove oil). It doesn't work for me with every fragrance oil, but it has helped me with a few of my more infamous accelerators/seizers: Don't add your fragrance oil at trace or after you've added the lye solution to your oils, instead, add the fragrance oil to your base oils before adding the lye solution to them. And when you subsequently add the lye solution in, slowly pour only half of it in while hand-stirring . When that half is completely mixed in, slowly hand-stir in the other half. Don't use the stickblender on them- just hand-stir only. This has helped to give me a minute or 2 of extra leeway time- just enough for me to get my soap mixed well and then to get it into my mold nicely before it gets too thick to work with or sets up like a rock in my pot. I still have to work quickly, but at least it's not in a manaicaly panicked manner.


IrishLass

 

[judymoody]

I'm so sorry you're having this trouble.

I can't say the reason but it sounds like the FOs are not suitable for cold process soap making.

It might be more cost effective to order on line from Europe or the UK, even when shipping is taken into account?

I wish I had a better answer for you.

That's an option now for me, any good sources for FO and EO's in UK/Europe?

New Directions Aromatics operates from a number of locations worldwide, including the UK. They have high quality essential oils, a variety of soaping supplies, and are increasing their range of fragrance oils. Their prices are very competitive.

I remember coming across a supplier in Spain or Portugal at one point. I will try to dig up the reference.

 

[carebear]

there is likely alcohol in those oils. if you are confident they are intended for use on the skin, and not for room air fresheners or something they I suggest you HP your soaps and add the fragrance oil after the cook. Some people manage, somehow, to make smooth and lovely HP soaps.

once they are used up, go back to CP.

you really really really don't need those exotic soaping oils, by the way. seriously. for the most part I've left them far behind.

good luck.

 

[z00100]

there is likely alcohol in those oils. if you are confident they are intended for use on the skin, and not for room air fresheners or something they I suggest you HP your soaps and add the fragrance oil after the cook. Some people manage, somehow, to make smooth and lovely HP soaps.

once they are used up, go back to CP.

you really really really don't need those exotic soaping oils, by the way. seriously. for the most part I've left them far behind.

good luck.

I agree for the most part. My soaps have Olive, Palm and Coconut and they are the best soaps I've ever used, I think that the addition of exotic oils would be marginal at best. I think there is a law of diminishing returns after this and adding more is not necessarily better.

That being said, I think superfatting with exotics is probably the way to go.

 

[z00100]

there is likely alcohol in those oils. if you are confident they are intended for use on the skin, and not for room air fresheners or something they I suggest you HP your soaps and add the fragrance oil after the cook. Some people manage, somehow, to make smooth and lovely HP soaps.

once they are used up, go back to CP.

you really really really don't need those exotic soaping oils, by the way. seriously. for the most part I've left them far behind.

good luck.

I've never tried HP soaps, and am a bit "apprehensive" to try it. But I may, just to see if this works out or not.

On a separate note, how to test for alcohol? Set fire to a drop of oil?

 

[z00100]

I don't live in the UK, but I've heard very good reviews about this UK supplier: http://www.gracefruit.com/

Many fragrance oils can be tricky- even those that are formulated to be skin and soap-safe. Many (but not all) spicy fragrances and floral fragrances are especially notorious for causing soap to accelerate or seize. One of the fragrance components infamously known for accelerating trace or causing seizes in soap is eugenol. From what I've been able to glean, eugenol is naturally present in the oils of clove, cinnamon, nutmeg, basil and bay leaf, and it is a commonly used raw material in the manufacture of fragrance oil. Not every fragrance oil contains it, but plenty enough do.

You can try the following trick (I learnt it from another soaper on another forum who soaps with clove oil). It doesn't work for me with every fragrance oil, but it has helped me with a few of my more infamous accelerators/seizers: Don't add your fragrance oil at trace or after you've added the lye solution to your oils, instead, add the fragrance oil to your base oils before adding the lye solution to them. And when you subsequently add the lye solution in, slowly pour only half of it in while hand-stirring . When that half is completely mixed in, slowly hand-stir in the other half. Don't use the stickblender on them- just hand-stir only. This has helped to give me a minute or 2 of extra leeway time- just enough for me to get my soap mixed well and then to get it into my mold nicely before it gets too thick to work with or sets up like a rock in my pot. I still have to work quickly, but at least it's not in a manaicaly panicked manner.


IrishLass

Thanks for this tip, I'll try it out tonight and let you know.

By the way, from your name it seems you are Irish. I was in Cork for a couple of months last year, and I loved it!!!

The food and BEER there is great!!! Beamish is the best!!!

 

[z00100]

I'm so sorry you're having this trouble.

I can't say the reason but it sounds like the FOs are not suitable for cold process soap making.

It might be more cost effective to order on line from Europe or the UK, even when shipping is taken into account?

I wish I had a better answer for you.

That's an option now for me, any good sources for FO and EO's in UK/Europe?

New Directions Aromatics operates from a number of locations worldwide, including the UK. They have high quality essential oils, a variety of soaping supplies, and are increasing their range of fragrance oils. Their prices are very competitive.

I remember coming across a supplier in Spain or Portugal at one point. I will try to dig up the reference.

Excellent source (the british one). I would prefer if it was cheaper since I have to deal with shipping costs

 

[IrishLass]

By the way, from your name it seems you are Irish. I was in Cork for a couple of months last year, and I loved it!!!

The food and BEER there is great!!! Beamish is the best!!!

I was born and bred in the USA., but yep, I'm Irish on my dad's side of the family. Funny you should mention Cork. My grandma gave her collection of gathered family info to me, and from that I was able to find out that my ancestors are from Cork and they emigrated to New York in the 1840's. That's as far back as I've been able to trace things, though. The records trail goes cold beyond that.


IrishLass

 

[lhaase0217]

I am also having problems incorporating FO into my batter without it going to a truly heavy, gloopy trace.

I heard various arguments for one thing or another but no one really seemed to know why some had problems with adding FO and some didn't. There are just too many variables to consider.

I tried again today making the following changes.

1. Used a recipe that was known to move slow
2. Ice bathed lye/water and oils down to slightly above room temp. (86 deg. F)
3. Blended lye/water and oils just to emulsify, did not bring to trace
4. Divided batter into prepared colorant cups. Colorants were fine powders (Paprika and Coco) blended in OO. SB only enough to blend thoroughly.
5. Once ready to start pouring, I added the FO, dividing it into the 3 batches proportionally. I stirred this up to incorporate first. Since it still had not reached traced, I hit each of the 3 colors with the SB.
6. Once thickened somewhat, I started to pour.

The pour went well. It was still a bit too soupy to do any type of top texture but I went back after a few minutes and did it then.


I have to wait till 1 pm tomorrow central time before I can unmold it but I am keeping my fingers crossed. It seemed to go through it's gel phase. I kept that puppy covered up tight. Now it is getting firmer.


I am not that patient, I will admit. Once I get the technique down and a few more successes under my belt I am sure I will be able to let these things wait without peeking.

 

[innerdiva73]

I am not that patient, I will admit. Once I get the technique down and a few more successes under my belt I am sure I will be able to let these things wait without peeking.[/QUOTE]

The excitement of unmolding and cutting ever goes away! Welcome to the wonderful impatient world of soaping!!:razz:

 

[nebetmiw]

This is going to be a bit long winded, so please bear with me on this one.





The local souks here are full of fragrance shops and dealers. The staple here is the Arabic Aouds but I don't want to incorporate those right now. I found a wholesaler of perfumes who has concentrates in single scents, such as grape, strawberry, pineapple, coconut, banana, vanilla, apple and mango.


Second day I used 1/2 that amount, guess what, same deal. I made a test batch of 16oz of Oils with one teaspoon only and it worked, however, the smell was barely detectable. I proceeded to add another teaspoon and it instantly siezed again.

T
What could the problem be?

Is the FO unsuitable for soapmaking?
He said it's oil based and there is no alcohol. I do believe him. However, I don't know what kind of carrier oil the FO has. Is it mineral oil or some other synthetic?



Please help!

Problem is your FO are Purfume oils. They are not the same as FO's used for soap.

 

[newbie]

I agree that this is most likely the problem. I noticed you said you bought from a perfumer so these are likely in alcohol and not made at all for soap. If there is alcohol in the base, you might be able to tell by how it is on your skin. The alcohol will evaporate quickly and there shouldn't be an oily residue. If it's oil-based, you will feel the oil on your skin. Some oils burn just fine as will alcohol, so while you might have a lot of fun setting fire to test (I would. I'm a bit of a pyromaniac), it would probably not answer the question. Even if something is in oil doesn't mean it's safe to apply to your body!

 

[lhaase0217]

I tried again today making the following changes.

1. Used a recipe that was known to move slow
2. Ice bathed lye/water and oils down to slightly above room temp. (86 deg. F)
3. Blended lye/water and oils just to emulsify, did not bring to trace
4. Divided batter into prepared colorant cups. Colorants were fine powders (Paprika and Coco) blended in OO. SB only enough to blend thoroughly.
5. Once ready to start pouring, I added the FO, dividing it into the 3 batches proportionally. I stirred this up to incorporate first. Since it still had not reached traced, I hit each of the 3 colors with the SB.
6. Once thickened somewhat, I started to pour.

The pour went well. It was still a bit too soupy to do any type of top texture but I went back after a few minutes and did it then.

I used paprika for a deep brick red color and unsweetened coco for a dark brown. I mixed these up well in OO before I poured the batter in. My base was not whitened, therefore retaining it's original custard color. I layered the 3 colors on and drizzled the top. I spoon twirled from the bottom 3 times, raising the spoon to the next level each time then used a skewer to mix it about some more.

I have to wait till 1 pm tomorrow central time before I can unmold it but I am keeping my fingers crossed. It seemed to go through it's gel phase. I kept that puppy covered up tight. Now it is getting firmer.


I am not that patient, I will admit. Once I get the technique down and a few more successes under my belt I am sure I will be able to let these things wait without peeking.

Now that it is un-molded, it looks like I expected it to look. I think I would have rather had more of a white than custard color though.

Here is the post that shows the pics.