Lye safety .... again.

[SunRiseArts]

ha ha I have never watch flight club either, but know everything about the scene where someone throws lye at another? I am going to have to find the clip on the tube.

I am super careful, but stuff happens. Is always good to get all these reminders.

Meanwhile, enjoy this one. Someone else posted it on the forum, you can advance to 0.57 if you do not want to watch the whole clip.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8NZao6emsQ&list=PLTx_Xh7LLdH4pcHKifkNBfBGcwK772nbF&index=26[/ame]

 

[wetshavingproducts]

Dry granules will not hurt you and neither should the outside of the bottle. only when mixed with liquid is it dangerous. I am not saying to pour the dry granules into your hand! After all, your hands could be sweaty. But you can calm down about handling the bottle if you use a reasonable amount of caution.

That is not true. Dry granules may not react immediately (and in reality, neither does a liquid mixture, the immediate burn is from the heat) but they will cause a chemical reaction and start eating your skin. While I'm not a chemist, I cannot see why NAOH in it's pure form will not react with skin/oil/anything. It is a highly unstable chemical and will react with anything.

Never, never, never put vinegar on a lye burn. It's an acid and will intensify the damage if any caused. It will cause a thermogenic reaction. Just rinse under water well. Generally it will itch before there is any burning in my experience. I've had it happen a time or two a few little bits got under my glove at the top.

Looks like Deanna has already addressed why this statement is incorrect. So I'll just add that the chemical reaction with vinegar is so insurmountably tiny that unless you're dealing with an actual spill on the ground or counter, nothing at all is going to happen. Not even a thermo whatever reaction.

Why? Because the amount of lye left on your skin and the surface are so darned small that the vinegar isn't really going to do anything unless you basically took a bath in lye. In which case, you've really got bigger things to worry about. But yes, in that case, you need to take a shower before using the vinegar.

Also, the vinegar won't really do much other than relieve some of the pain. Probably because it neutralizes the lye faster.

 

[cobbsie]

You don't want the NaOH crystals sitting on your skin, as they will draw moisture from both the air and your skin to create lye that will then start turning your flesh into soap.

But that takes time.

The most terrifying sentence ever!

I found a small lye grain on my hand through an intense itch in a tiny spot and washed it off.......turn to soap you say......*shiver*

 

[reinbeau]

That is not true. Dry granules may not react immediately (and in reality, neither does a liquid mixture, the immediate burn is from the heat) but they will cause a chemical reaction and start eating your skin. While I'm not a chemist, I cannot see why NAOH in it's pure form will not react with skin/oil/anything. It is a highly unstable chemical and will react with anything.

Actually yes, it is true, dry lye granules will not do you any harm. As was also stated, it is hydroscopic, so it will immediately start to attract water and *then* it will become an issue. In any event, proper handling includes gloves until all lye/granules/solution is used or cleaned up.

Looks like Deanna has already addressed why this statement is incorrect. So I'll just add that the chemical reaction with vinegar is so insurmountably tiny that unless you're dealing with an actual spill on the ground or counter, nothing at all is going to happen. Not even a thermo whatever reaction.

Why? Because the amount of lye left on your skin and the surface are so darned small that the vinegar isn't really going to do anything unless you basically took a bath in lye. In which case, you've really got bigger things to worry about. But yes, in that case, you need to take a shower before using the vinegar.

Also, the vinegar won't really do much other than relieve some of the pain. Probably because it neutralizes the lye faster.

Actually the exothermic reaction most certainly can burn skin. I don't quite know why you'd argue that fact at all. I've seen pictures posted by people who did the vinegar thing and found out the hard way that it isn't a good idea. It isn't a good idea. No vinegar, ever, just water, cool water, and lots of it.


The vinegar thing is something we drive a wooden stake into the heart of all the time, and someone comes along and pulls it out.....

 

[DeeAnna]

"...the vinegar won't really do much other than relieve some of the pain...."

For those who have been foolish or misinformed enough to try it, the reports are that using vinegar on the skin substantially INcreases the pain.

"....the chemical reaction with vinegar is so insurmountably tiny that unless you're dealing with an actual spill on the ground or counter, nothing at all is going to happen. Not even a thermo whatever reaction....."

I'm not sure why you have this opinion -- something most definitely does happen and you can't discount the effect based on how small the exposure is to the NaOH. If you have a small granule or droplet of NaOH on your skin -- especially in the eye, under the fingernail, or on some other highly sensitive tissue -- I guarantee you will know the difference between using water vs using vinegar.

 

[cobbsie]

Don't use vinegar (or any other acid) to neutralize lye on the body. Use only cool water and plenty of it to rinse the alkali off.

As many times as we've talked on this Forum about the reasons why using vinegar on a lye burn is not a smart thing to do, there must be many "authorities" who continue to spread this mis-information. I wish this dangerous myth would die. More: https://classicbells.com/soap/lyeFirstAid.html

It is quite confusing. I an not sure it is always spreading of mis information perhaps just people applying basic chemistry knowledge. I made the assumption from having drilled in at chemistry A level to neutralise first then wash. That would automatically mean thinking about a splash of vinegar then swoosh under water. We were always told water would dilute but not neutralise.

Very happy to learn otherwise through all the people's knowledge and experience.....and my Chem is 20 years out if date....just it may be people making the same assumption.

I haven't come across a soapmaker who promotes vinegar but us newbies need all the help we can get in getting right with this stuff.....please keep on actively swishing the myth

 

[SgtSluggo]

I'm going to put my two cents in and offer another place where this might come from.

Burns from bases on the skin come from two places - First the dissolution of the dry base (or the dilution of the concentrated solution) is extremely exothermic. This means that the resulting solution heats up very fast. The extent of this is based on several things. First, the concentration of the resulting solution (a greater lye to solvent ratio is more exothermic). Second is the temp of the solvent. The reaction will increase the temp of the solvent by a certain number of degrees (i.e. warmer water gets hotter). Finally, the acidity of the solvent. More acidic solvents will cause a more exothermic reaction. All this causes a thermal burn on your skin based on the temp of the solution. Dilute lye solution cooled to room temp won't cause a thermal burn on your skin as long as your skin is dry.

Second is the chemical burn caused by the strong base of NaOH. The primary determining factor for the extent of the reaction is the concentration of the solution. A 50% solution will cause more damage than a 1% solution. This is a chemical reaction with your skin that is actually with free hydroxide (-OH) molecules. This only occurs with a Lye solution. If your skin was perfectly dry and you stuck your hand in a bucket of lye solution you would not have any burn (until the stress of doing such and insane thing caused your hands to sweat. However, your skin is almost never perfectly dry. (nor are the crystals perfectly water free).

Now for the vinegar thing- When working with strong bases (of which Sodium Hydroxide is only barely one), chemists will sometimes prepare a neutralization bath with acetic acid (concentrated vinegar). This is because that with some bases, gloves only protect you for so long. If any gets on your hands you have seconds to neutralize the base before it eats through your glove. In these cases you aren't really worried about the additional damage from a pH 4 or 5 acid. The difference in dilution with water and partial neutralization can be the different between 2nd and 3rd degree burns (or the difference between a burn and loosing a digit). No one has to take these precautions when working with Lye.

Here is my lye first aid advice from a chemistry point of view.
1. Use large volumes of water to remove any lye solution from your skin as fast as possible. Initially use cold water then just cool water if you have a resulting burn.
2. If you get lye crystals on your skin and it isn't burning, attempt to brush as much off as possible before rinsing.
3. If you are going to be working with large quantities or high concentration lye - keep a bucket of ICE water nearby for neutralization.
4. When in doubt of what you should do (or place this in your mind as what to do in a panic situation), just go jump in the shower. Don't remove any clothes, shoes, or protective equipment, just go get in the shower and turn it on cold.

Finally - Don't worry about lye turning you into soap. There won't be any soap making unless it gets all the way to your subcutaneous fat layer. By that time it will have killed most the nerves in the outer layers of skin and it won't really hurt anymore...:twisted:

 

[SunRiseArts]

Yikes, I think I am more scare than before! :shock:

Talking about it, at the beginning of the year, I thought about having a laser peel. My husband did not want me to, and I decided to show him pictures, and when I actually looked at it, I definitively chicken out. They have told me to buy aquaphor, and I got a jar.

Seems to be good for burns. So the other day, just in case I put some. Reading the label, is petroleum base, and I went eeeewwww, but it does work, out of curiosity to see if I could find something on hand, I stopped at the local Walgreens. The pharmacist had no idea what a chemical burn was, what do to about it, nor did she new what sodium oxide was. There was a minute clinic there, she ask the doctor (most likely a nurse practitioner), she had no idea what a chemical burn was either. I asked her, what would you do if someone stops with one? And she goes, I don't know, refer them to the emergency room .... and I am ooookkkkk.

The pharmacist directed me to sunburn lotions .... I said thanks, never mind, jokingly I asked her, don't you have to study the periodic table in college to be a pharmacist? She said yes, and I just left, did not want to make her feel bad ...

I know to use water, and all. I was just thinking of having something handy in case a burn occurs, that I after I have diluted with water and shower, put on for protection....

Also, another question .... when is it ok to handle the soap without gloves? After 24 hours, 48? longer? thanks.

I used to make HP only before, so this was not an issue.

 

[Susie]

Oh, gosh, I didn't know that, having never seen the movie nor read the book. I can't get far enough past the squick factor to get interested -- ewwwww.

Soapmaking has so little to do with the plot that I would never refer to it as a soapmaking movie. If you like psychological thrillers, watch it. Otherwise, I rate it a 2 out of 10. I watched it for the first, AND LAST, time a couple of years ago. Men love it. Women, not so much, usually.

 

[Susie]

Also, another question .... when is it ok to handle the soap without gloves? After 24 hours, 48? longer? thanks.

I used to make HP only before, so this was not an issue.

I cut mine at 18-24 hours without gloves, normally, but I gel my soap. If it is individual molds, or not gelled for whatever reason, I give it 72 hrs-1 week before unmolding without gloves.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...The primary determining factor for the extent of the reaction is the concentration of the solution. A 50% solution will cause more damage than a 1% solution...."

While I agree this is technically true, it is also true that soapers seldom use less than a 25% NaOH (or KOH) concentration when making soap. The health hazard of a 25% NaOH solution is essentially the same as the risk of a 50% solution. I've seen soapers try to discount the risk because the NaOH is "only 25%" or whatever. That assumption just as much of a myth as using vinegar to neutralize NaOH on the body.

The point here is that you have only a short time ... a very short time ... to minimize the damage to body tissues when using concentrated NaOH, whether it be 25%, 50%, or somewhere in between.

 

[Dlbroox]

I'd wanted to make soap for years but was too afraid to try because of the lye. Then I read somewhere a soaper's comment that cars are dangerous too if you don't handle them correctly. That gave me real perspective, so now I'm totally into it.

I have a healthy respect for the dangers of lye. I've watched youtubes of plenty of people who mix it without gloves or goggles and think they're nuts. I even mix mine outside do avoid the fumes.

My takeaway from this dialog is the stuff is really f'ing dangerous and I'm not using vinegar on my skin if any of it touches me! I will suit up like I'm going to Mars before I even measure it out, and I'll use only water if something happens.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

A healthy respect is good, but I usually put it so - if you can handle pots of boiling water and some of the more dangerous household cleaning products capably then lye should not be an issue if you don't take it for granted.

Be cautious and respectful of it, but too much fear could also lead to too much tension and panic, which is falling off the other side of the horse and can cause problems to arise.

 

[DeeAnna]

I don't mean to make people shy away from making soap, but I'm pretty determined that people should know the correct thing to do when handling NaOH or if an accident happens.

The hazards of the chemicals I was working around and the proper emergency response were repeatedly drilled into me as an engineer working in the chemical industry. And the drills were done with good reason -- people tend to be lackadaisical about chemical safety if they're not educated about the consequences and reminded regularly.

The point, as Dlbroox points out, is to work with NaOH with educated respect, not with fear. Fear makes a person nervous and unhappy and more likely to make a mistake -- and we make soap, most of us, for the enjoyment and creativity of it, not to endure a fearful, nerve-wracking experience.

If you need to "suit up like you're going to Mars" to feel more confident, then do so. As you get more experience and realize the NaOH isn't going to turn into a dragon and attack, then you might need to use a little less "armor" and still feel okay. I doubt I will ever soap barefoot, but I don't suit up either.

I always recommend eye protection, every time and always, no matter what, no exceptions. Injury to the eyes can easily become a permanent and life-changing disability.

edit: I second what The Gent said!

 

[dixiedragon]

My takeaway from this dialog is the stuff is really f'ing dangerous and I'm not using vinegar on my skin if any of it touches me! I will suit up like I'm going to Mars before I even measure it out, and I'll use only water if something happens.

Some of us (such as me) don't suit up. My reasoning (and that of some other soapers) is that if you get some lye water or soap on your bare arm, you will notice it and quickly rinse it off. But if you get some on your shirt sleeve, you may not notice and it may get in your eyes or on a child or a pet. Plus if you have a really messy situation, and get soap all over your clothes, such as a volcano, then you spend a lot of time trying to unbutton, etc, if you are wearing a button-up long-sleeve shirt. VS a stretchy t-shirt you can easily pull off.

 

[Dlbroox]

I was probably being a little dramatic. When I first started I did wear long sleeves and long pants, gloves, and goggles. Once I got used to it and realized lye doesn't jump up and turn into a Game of Thrones dragon and I'm not going to die in my kitchen making soap, I kept the gloves, goggles and long sleeved loose T shirt, but have now been known to make soap in shorts.

I think the idea of what you can wear and tear off if need be is a great point. For a relatively new soaper, this entire conversation has been invaluable.

 

[wetshavingproducts]

If you're breaking down a 50lb bag of lye, you should "suit up" as the dust gets everywhere.

If you're dealing with a strong lye concentration, googles are just ... common sense because you really really really don't want that stuff in your eyeballs. Wearing gloves is also a good idea. And a respirator is a must because the fumes are very very bad for your lungs.

As for the rest of your skin. You probably aren't going to die and probably aren't going to be seriously injured other than a sunburn. You aren't dealing with 100's of pounds of it.

"...the vinegar won't really do much other than relieve some of the pain...."

For those who have been foolish or misinformed enough to try it, the reports are that using vinegar on the skin substantially INcreases the pain.

"....the chemical reaction with vinegar is so insurmountably tiny that unless you're dealing with an actual spill on the ground or counter, nothing at all is going to happen. Not even a thermo whatever reaction....."

I'm not sure why you have this opinion -- something most definitely does happen and you can't discount the effect based on how small the exposure is to the NaOH. If you have a small granule or droplet of NaOH on your skin -- especially in the eye, under the fingernail, or on some other highly sensitive tissue -- I guarantee you will know the difference between using water vs using vinegar.

1.
There is an actual study that states this. My personal experience bears this out. Unless we're talking about dumping vinegar on like a tablespoon's worth of lye pellets. Or using vinegar after spilling a whole lye pot on your shirt. In which case, I wouldn't know.

2. Refer to above. I don't think we're talking about the same size of spill. For a splash on your hand, nothing happens. For your whole hand being covered in lye water. I would not know, don't want to know, don't want to find out. But the MSDS says wash it with water. Afterwards, using vinegar to ease the pain is probably not harmful.

 

[SgtSluggo]

FYI: My post wasn't meant to be scary, just informative. I have worked with things much more caustic than sodium hydroxide and come out without a scratch. The most important thing is being aware of what could happen and then knowing what to do if something bad does happen.

 

[reinbeau]

Vinegar is not an analgesic. I don't know what it is so important to continue to advocate for vinegar, it is absolutely unnecessary. Can we let that go please?

 

[Punkin2x74]

Can you remember which show used Sodium Hydroxide to kill someone. They had to use gallons of vinegar to neutralize the large amount of SH they used.