Long lasting bar

[cascarral]

Hello!

I had some complains about my soaps lasting too little, my recipe then was: OO 40%, CO 25%, canola 20%, cocoa 10% and castor 5% with 6% SF.
I’ve been changing it trying to make a better bar but still cant notice any difference! Because of my costumers I’m restricted to vegan palm free recipes... I’d appreciate your ideas over this, Im feeling hopless!

After reading the thread on solubility I made some changes, got the coconut down and added shea butter. So far the best I’ve come up with has been:
OO 40%, Ca

Here’s a picture of the numbers from that last recipe

 

[AliOop]

How long are you curing your soaps? They should be cured at least 4 weeks, and 6 weeks would be even better.

 

[cascarral]

How long are you curing your soaps? They should be cured at least 4 weeks, and 6 weeks would be even better.

I've been curing 6 weeks to be on the safe side

 

[KiwiMoose]

Hola!
They will be harder and last longer the longer you cure them - I'd aim for at least 3 months. OO needs a longer cure than most oils, and you have a high percentage of that in there.
However, you could do what I do and use soy wax to increase the stearic acid component - which aids longevity. If you can increase the palmitic/stearic to over 30 they will last a lot longer. If you can't get Soy Wax I would consider increasing your cocoa butter and taking it off your canola oil. Can you get Rice Bran Oil? Maybe use some of that as a preferred soft oil to Olive/canola.
Assuming you can't get soy wax I would try something like this:
20% Cocoa Butter or half and half Cocoa/Shea butter
25% CO
30% OO
20% RBO
5% Castor
And maybe reduce the superfat to 4%.

 

[cascarral]

Hola!
They will be harder and last longer the longer you cure them - I'd aim for at least 3 months. OO needs a longer cure than most oils, and you have a high percentage of that in there.
However, you could do what I do and use soy wax to increase the stearic acid component - which aids longevity. If you can increase the palmitic/stearic to over 30 they will last a lot longer. If you can't get Soy Wax I would consider increasing your cocoa butter and taking it off your canola oil. Can you get Rice Bran Oil? Maybe use some of that as a preferred soft oil to Olive/canola.
Assuming you can't get soy wax I would try something like this:
20% Cocoa Butter or half and half Cocoa/Shea butter
25% CO
30% OO
20% RBO
5% Castor
And maybe reduce the superfat to 4%.

Thank you for your insight!! RBO is too expensive for it to be an option but maybe I could use candelilla wax, would it work as well as soy?

Hola!
They will be harder and last longer the longer you cure them - I'd aim for at least 3 months. OO needs a longer cure than most oils, and you have a high percentage of that in there.
However, you could do what I do and use soy wax to increase the stearic acid component - which aids longevity. If you can increase the palmitic/stearic to over 30 they will last a lot longer. If you can't get Soy Wax I would consider increasing your cocoa butter and taking it off your canola oil. Can you get Rice Bran Oil? Maybe use some of that as a preferred soft oil to Olive/canola.
Assuming you can't get soy wax I would try something like this:
20% Cocoa Butter or half and half Cocoa/Shea butter
25% CO
30% OO
20% RBO
5% Castor
And maybe reduce the superfat to 4%.

It's so interesting that you mention castor since I erased it from my first recipe because I thought it would have a higher solubility than olive... Does ricinoleic acid contribute to a harder bar?

What about using stereatic acid? will this make a long lasting bar or just a harder one?

 

[KiwiMoose]

Thank you for your insight!! RBO is too expensive for it to be an option but maybe I could use candelilla wax, would it work as well as soy?

Awww - shame it is dirt cheap here in Nueva Zelandia. Yes - try candelilla wax - but be aware that is has a high melt point so you might have to soap a bit hotter. i have not idea of the fatty acid profile of it, since I think it can vary dependent on the place/time of harvest. How funny that it is so cheap for you there (that's where it's grown!) and soo expensive for us here.
I don't think you will need much but I can't say for sure. I'm pretty sure one of our other Mexican members tried it once - maybe do a search on here for it?
Castor does not improve hardness - I was just trying to keep your recipe as similar as possible to the original.

 

[DeeAnna]

...maybe I could use candelilla wax, would it work as well as soy?

Candelilla wax does not saponify well -- not even as well as beeswax. You could certainly include candellia or beeswax, but I'd suggest using only a few percent -- they're not a good substitute for a main soaping fat such as soy or RBO.

Soy wax is not the same thing as a wax like beeswax or candelilla. Soy wax should (IMO) be correctly called fully hydrogenated soy oil, but that's a mouthful, so "soy wax" it is.

Soy wax saponifies the same as normal soy oil, but contributes stearic and palmitic acids to your soap which your recipe really needs to have a decently long life in the bath. Regular soy oil does not.

edit: Stearic acid can work, but you will have to modify your soap making methods to use stearic acid. Stearic acid melts at a much higher temperature than regular fats, so you may need to soap at higher temperatures. Stearic also saponifies within seconds after it "sees" your lye solution, so you may have to use a hot process method to make your soap if you want to use more than 2-3% stearic.

 

[cascarral]

Awww - shame it is dirt cheap here in Nueva Zelandia. Yes - try candelilla wax - but be aware that is has a high melt point so you might have to soap a bit hotter. i have not idea of the fatty acid profile of it, since I think it can vary dependent on the place/time of harvest. How funny that it is so cheap for you there (that's where it's grown!) and soo expensive for us here.
I don't think you will need much but I can't say for sure. I'm pretty sure one of our other Mexican members tried it once - maybe do a search on here for it?
Castor does not improve hardness - I was just trying to keep your recipe as similar as possible to the original.

Thank you! I'll look into candelilla wax. Have never used wax in soap before so it'll be a new experiment for me.

Candelilla wax does not saponify well -- not even as well as beeswax. You could certainly include candellia or beeswax, but I'd suggest using only a few percent -- they're not a good substitute for a main soaping fat such as soy or RBO.

Soy wax is not the same thing as a wax like beeswax or candelilla. Soy wax should (IMO) be correctly called fully hydrogenated soy oil, but that's a mouthful, so "soy wax" it is.

Soy wax saponifies the same as normal soy oil, but contributes stearic and palmitic acids to your soap which your recipe really needs to have a decently long life in the bath. Regular soy oil does not.

edit: Stearic acid can work, but you will have to modify your soap making methods to use stearic acid. Stearic acid melts at a much higher temperature than regular fats, so you may need to soap at higher temperatures. Stearic also saponifies within seconds after it "sees" your lye solution, so you may have to use a hot process method to make your soap if you want to use more than 2-3% stearic.

Thank you DeeAnna! This is so interestig, I have zero experience with waxes.

RBO is very very expensive here and I can't seem to find a non gmo soy wax... Feel like I have no options left.

Would 20% Shea/cocoa butter still be too little?

 

[KiwiMoose]

I think 20% split between those two would be good - or even just one of them if you can get it cheaply enough. Cocoa butter has more stearic. It's just really expensive here so i don't use it - and I use Soy Wax instead.
OO is 'harder' than canola oil once cured, so I would take any additions to your recipe off the canola oil content and leave the OO component.

 

[cascarral]

I think 20% split between those two would be good - or even just one of them if you can get it cheaply enough. Cocoa butter has more stearic. It's just really expensive here so i don't use it - and I use Soy Wax instead.
OO is 'harder' than canola oil once cured, so I would take any additions to your recipe off the canola oil content and leave the OO component.

Thank you ! I’ll tweak some more and see what I get.

I use canola to lower my costs since cocoa and shea are quite expensive but I’ll try bringing it down.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Thank you ! I’ll tweak some more and see what I get.

I use canola to lower my costs since cocoa and shea are quite expensive but I’ll try bringing it down.

I hear ya! That’s why I use RBO.

 

[SeaSuds]

I'm curious to know if avocado oil is cheaper for you in Mexico? I see avocado oil as a 'harder' oil and it's so lovely in soap but very expensive in my part of the world

 

[KiwiMoose]

I'm curious to know if avocado oil is cheaper for you in Mexico? I see avocado oil as a 'harder' oil and it's so lovely in soap but very expensive in my part of the world

Yes I was wondering that too.

 

[cascarral]

I hear ya! That’s why I use RBO.

Ugh! I wish it wasn't so expensive here. Now I want it so badly

I'm curious to know if avocado oil is cheaper for you in Mexico? I see avocado oil as a 'harder' oil and it's so lovely in soap but very expensive in my part of the world

Yes I was wondering that too.

It is half the price of wheat germ, now that you mention it! Still more expensive than OO and CO but might be worth a try. Didn't know it was a harder oil, thought the opposite. How come? Would you mind explaining the science behind?

 

[JillGat]

Cascarral, Where are you in Mexico?

 

[amd]

I'm curious to hear what isn't considered a long-lasting bar. It may also depend on how it's being used - is it one person or many people using the same bar every day? How is the soap stored in the shower? How is it being used in the shower - lather on hands, on a wash cloth, on a shower poofy?

If comparing to commercial soap, a handcrafted soap isn't going to be as long lasting. I had a customer who was going through a bar every two weeks. I discovered that she was not letting the soap drain and air dry properly, so the soap was getting soggy and squishy (and she was wiping off the squishy bits). I also discovered she was using the bar directly on her skin rather than using a wash cloth or poofy. I got her setup with a soap saver to help dry out the soap in the shower and a shower poofy, and her soaps last about 7 weeks... and I have a happy returning customer. I would find out some specifics from the customer before I start messing with my formula - especially if it is lasting a long time in your own shower. Maybe your customer also has unrealistic expectations that your soap should last 8 weeks in the shower. What size are your bars? Maybe the bar size is too small for a normal use. e.g. if you're selling a 56g soap and expecting it to last 4 weeks, you'll be disappointed. You'll need to increase the bar size.

 

[KiwiMoose]

@cascarral - would it matter if the soy was GMO for soap making? It's not like they're eating it. I found this quite good article online which seems well researched: StackPath ( though you never know with stuff on the internet). We drink soy milk at home, but it's non-GMO milk.
Regarding Avocado Oil - it's higher in palmitic than OO but with less oleic. It would help increase your hardness compared to oils that have little or no stearic/palmitic such as canola.

 

[RobinRogers]

I was taught that the general rule of thumb was 50% hard oils. I always get 5% castor oil. I also do not superfat my recipes unless it is a face bar. When I use lard, it is softer. I cure 6 weeks.

@cascarral - would it matter if the soy was GMO for soap making? It's not like they're eating it. I found this quite good article online which seems well researched: StackPath ( though you never know with stuff on the internet). We drink soy milk at home, but it's non-GMO milk.
Regarding Avocado Oil - it's higher in palmitic than OO but with less oleic. It would help increase your hardness compared to oils that have little or no stearic/palmitic such as canola.

I really like avocado oil, and I’m a huge fan of rice bran oil and a small amount of castor oil.

 

[cascarral]

Cascarral, Where are you in Mexico?

Mexico City

I'm curious to hear what isn't considered a long-lasting bar. It may also depend on how it's being used - is it one person or many people using the same bar every day? How is the soap stored in the shower? How is it being used in the shower - lather on hands, on a wash cloth, on a shower poofy?

If comparing to commercial soap, a handcrafted soap isn't going to be as long lasting. I had a customer who was going through a bar every two weeks. I discovered that she was not letting the soap drain and air dry properly, so the soap was getting soggy and squishy (and she was wiping off the squishy bits). I also discovered she was using the bar directly on her skin rather than using a wash cloth or poofy. I got her setup with a soap saver to help dry out the soap in the shower and a shower poofy, and her soaps last about 7 weeks... and I have a happy returning customer. I would find out some specifics from the customer before I start messing with my formula - especially if it is lasting a long time in your own shower. Maybe your customer also has unrealistic expectations that your soap should last 8 weeks in the shower. What size are your bars? Maybe the bar size is too small for a normal use. e.g. if you're selling a 56g soap and expecting it to last 4 weeks, you'll be disappointed. You'll need to increase the bar size.

Wow!! Thank you for all this, it really opens things up. I'll ask about use but even in my own shower bars just seam to disappear, I know it's the price to pay for a vegan palm free soap, too.

My bars are 100 gr, but they are tall and thin, maybe this is contributing to it?

I may have to think about selling plates for soaps to drain correctly. Thanks again forsharing your thoughts

@cascarral - would it matter if the soy was GMO for soap making? It's not like they're eating it. I found this quite good article online which seems well researched: StackPath ( though you never know with stuff on the internet). We drink soy milk at home, but it's non-GMO milk.
Regarding Avocado Oil - it's higher in palmitic than OO but with less oleic. It would help increase your hardness compared to oils that have little or no stearic/palmitic such as canola.

My concern with soy is more around human health in soy plantations and less about my own jaja, have seen and read too much about cancer in Argentina due to agrochemicals in soy plantations.

I'll try and see how a bit of avocado works thank you!

I've been experimenting with my previous formula, the "new" one (10% more shea and les coconut) and another soap I bought from a farmer's market that has OO CO and cocoa butter, my conclusion is that even though my "new"formula lasts the longest, the farmer's market feels nicer because it's less slimmy, I'm pretty sure it's because of the canola so I'll try your advice in this regard. Today I'm making some tests, we'll see in 6 weeks what happens

I was taught that the general rule of thumb was 50% hard oils. I always get 5% castor oil. I also do not superfat my recipes unless it is a face bar. When I use lard, it is softer. I cure 6 weeks.

Interesting! Never heard of non superfatting, just for dishes. How did you decide to go that way? Do bars last longer without SF? Is there a difference in conditioning?

 

[GemstonePony]

I'll ask about use but even in my own shower bars just seam to disappear, I know it's the price to pay for a vegan palm free soap, too.

My bars are 100 gr, but they are tall and thin, maybe this is contributing to it?

My vegan, no-palm soap lasts longer than my vegan soap with palm, and both hold up fairly well with frequent use. I use Shea and Cocoa butter in both, so it might be less economical, but I don't think it's fair to say that a disappearing bar is the price you pay for going palm-free. It makes it sound like conscientiously crafted artisan bars are at best a 1-2-use item, and I'm not convinced that needs to be the case.

However, containers/packages of small single-use bars do seem popular at the moment, so maybe you could see what your customers think of the idea?