Liquid (syndet) Shampoo Viscosity Issues

[HowieRoll]

Hi All,

I'm hoping to get advice from those who have made liquid syndet shampoo. It's something I started research on a few months ago (mainly using SwiftCraftyMonkey and It's All in My Hands for guidance), and then gathered ingredients from both LotionCrafter and Ingredients to Die For to make both shampoo and conditioner. This has been a long learning process and I still have a loooonnng way to go. There are times I think I've gone off the rails. :think:

I made a small test batch of both shampoo and conditioner last weekend. Miraculously, they both turned out semi-decent. By that I mean my hair hasn't fallen out or shown signs of distress (yet) and I'm liking the performance of both (lather, conditioning feel, shine, etc).

But as the shampoo test batch #1 was cooling, what started out as complete water-like liquid thickened to well beyond "pour-able." To use it I'd have to run the bottle under hot water in the shower for a minute to soften it enough to squeeze out, and then it was great.

For the second test batch, I adjusted some things around hoping to get a more satisfactory viscosity. But now it is in the bottle and has completely remained water-like - effectively going the exact opposite of the first batch.

Grrr.

Below are my two recipes, with the changes made to the second batch in bold. I am happy to keep experimenting, but was hoping those with experience could help direct me with where I might go next in adjusting percentages.

Recipe 1 (way too thick):
54.75% Distilled Water
5% Glycerine
15% Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate (SCI - pellet form)
5% Sodium Lauroyl Sarcosinate (powder)
10% Cocamidopropyl Betaine (liquid)
2% DL-Panthenol
2% Quinoa Protein
2% Honeyquat
3% Propanediol 1,3
0.5% Liquid Germall Plus
0.75% Fragrance (essential oil blend of Peppermint/Rosemary/Anise)

Recipe 2* (way too thin):
58.75% Distilled Water
5% Glycerine
10% Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate (SCI)
3% Sodium Lauroyl Sarcosinate
15% Cocamidopropyl Betaine
2% Oat Protein
2% Honeyquat
3% Propanediol 1,3
0.5% Liquid Germall Plus
0.75% Fragrance (essential oil blend of Grapefruit/Peppermint/Rosemary)

*for recipe #2 I completely eliminated the DL-Panthenol and put that toward the water amount.

I guess I wasn't expecting such a drastic change in viscosity, and now wonder if I should be switching things around by fractions of a percent, instead of the hacksaw approach I seemed to take? Working with most of these ingredients is completely new to me.

Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

 

[Saranac]

I'm far from an expert, but this is what I'm noticing:

Recipe 1 (way too thick):
Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate 15% x .84 AS =12.6
Sodium Lauroyl Sarcosinate 5% x .95 AS = 4.75
Cocamidopropyl Betaine 10% x .30 AS = 3
Total Sufactant =20.35% Active Surfactant

Recipe 2 (way too thin):
Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate 10% x .84 AS = 8.4
Sodium Lauroyl Sarcosinate 3% x .95 = 2.85
Cocamidopropyl Betaine 15% x .30 = 4.5
Total Sufactant = 15.75% Active Surfactant

Generally, the more surfactant, the thicker the product. I'm also wonder if the honeyquat (which is cationic) is adding too much thickening to the already too thick shampoo.

 

[HowieRoll]

Hi Saranac, and thanks for weighing in here.

The AS numbers you have are correct, and thank you for tracking them down (I should have included them in my already long post!).

I had such trouble with the SCI not melting in the first go around and had read a post from Chemist's Corner where there was a suggestion to increase Cocamidopropyl Betaine 3:1 over SCI to make it more soluble (if that's the right word). While it's not a 3:1 ratio in my second recipe, I did want to reverse the ingredients to see if the SCI would incorporate a bit better. Well, it did but now I'm left with a very runny shampoo.

It would appear the result of my shotgun approach toward changing things up was a bit aggressive, and I should have paid more attention to the fact the total AS was dropping by 4.6%. Maybe next time I should try:

11% Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate (SCI - pellet form)
5% Sodium Lauroyl Sarcosinate (powder)
15% Cocamidopropyl Betaine (liquid)

This would make 18.49% total AS, a 1.86% drop from the too thick recipe, and see where that ends up. Unless, of course, you or anyone has a more sound approach!

Thanks again!

PS Interesting observation about the honeyquat, and I'll also have to experiment with/without it.

 

[lsg]

You can add Crothix liquid to thicken the thin shampoo. Susan Swift has great tutorials on formulating shampoos.
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/p/hair-care.html

 

[Saranac]

I should have also noted that the only surfactant in your formulas that I use is cocamidopropyl betaine; I'm unfamiliar with the rest, but they seem to be anionic, and it's a reaction between the anionic and (cationic) cocamidopropyl betaine that causes some thickening. I'm assuming that the honeyquat will do the same (but I've never used that either--just going by what I read).

Shampoo formulation has been a very trial-and-error experience for me. I really like the way things are explained at It's All in My Hands--she seems to place more emphases on the total Active Surfactant than Susan.

For what it's worth, I like polyquat 10. A small amount (about 0.5%) is all I need to get the slip I like--and some thickening. I also keep my AS% below 15% as that range is too aggressive for my hair. But again, I'm using different surfactants (sodium olefin sulfonate and cocoa glucoside, with cocamidopropyl betaine).

 

[HowieRoll]

You can add Crothix liquid to thicken the thin shampoo. Susan Swift has great tutorials on formulating shampoos.
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/p/hair-care.html

Thanks, lsg. I agree that Susan at SwiftCraftyMonkey is a tremendous resource and I've scoured her blog until I'm googley-eyed! I'd seen the references to Liquid Crothix but was unable to find it at Ingredients to Die For or LotionCrafter, and have already invested quite a bit in this endeavor so was hoping to be able to control viscosity in other ways. I did purchase some xanthan gum but have been too afraid to use it. lol (and I think it's incompatible with honeyquat, which isn't a big deal because I could just eliminate that from the shampoo)

I should have also noted that the only surfactant in your formulas that I use is cocamidopropyl betaine; I'm unfamiliar with the rest, but they seem to be anionic, and it's a reaction between the anionic and (cationic) cocamidopropyl betaine that causes some thickening. I'm assuming that the honeyquat will do the same (but I've never used that either--just going by what I read).

Shampoo formulation has been a very trial-and-error experience for me. I really like the way things are explained at It's All in My Hands--she seems to place more emphases on the total Active Surfactant than Susan.

For what it's worth, I like polyquat 10. A small amount (about 0.5%) is all I need to get the slip I like--and some thickening. I also keep my AS% below 15% as that range is too aggressive for my hair. But again, I'm using different surfactants (sodium olefin sulfonate and cocoa glucoside, with cocamidopropyl betaine).

Yes, I can see where this is going to be a great deal of trial and error. I didn't expect to catch lightening in a bottle the first time out, so to speak, but I was hoping to get reasonably close so minor tweaks could be made. Looking back, just buying one of the established surfactant mixes from one of the suppliers might have been a good idea. But noooo, I had to try this all on my own...

Thanks for the additional thoughts!

 

[lsg]

Do you have glycol distearate? You can use it as a thickener as well as conditioner and a peralizer. It needs to be added in the heated stage. You can also try a salt solution of salt dissolved in hot water, adding a small amount of this solution to the thin shampoo. Add just a little at a time. I would try this with just a small amount of the shampoo to see how it works.
According to The Chemists Corner, SCI will thicken with a salt solution , but Sodium Lauroyl Sarcosinate does not. As you have used a higher percentage of SCI, it might work. I am not a chemist, so I don't understand how all this works. I am just guessing.

 

[Dahila]

Here lotioncrafters ; http://www.lotioncrafter.com/surfthix-doe.html
your shampoo has not enough surfacants in my opinion, I use 40% of surfacants to my shampoo or face wash, Works great, Honeyquat is not enough time on hair to add anything. I would switch to protein keratin or oat protein,

 

[HowieRoll]

Do you have glycol distearate? You can use it as a thickener as well as conditioner and a peralizer. It needs to be added in the heated stage. You can also try a salt solution of salt dissolved in hot water, adding a small amount of this solution to the thin shampoo. Add just a little at a time. I would try this with just a small amount of the shampoo to see how it works.
According to The Chemists Corner, SCI will thicken with a salt solution , but Sodium Lauroyl Sarcosinate does not. As you have used a higher percentage of SCI, it might work. I am not a chemist, so I don't understand how all this works. I am just guessing.

I don't have glycol distearate, unfortunately. I had curated what I thought was a decent list of ingredients from ITDF and LC, and $145 later (including shipping) hoped to have a good tool chest with which to experiment making a satisfactory shampoo/conditioner. Oy. At this point I'm hoping to make the ingredients purchased work, but know another order is in my future (that liquid Crothix is taunting me). I'm making notes of these suggestions for research.

I do, however, have salt! And water! So perhaps an experiment with a portion of the runny batch is in order (knowing it would have a very short expiration, as the preservative will be diluted). Thank you!

Here lotioncrafters ; http://www.lotioncrafter.com/surfthix-doe.html
your shampoo has not enough surfacants in my opinion, I use 40% of surfacants to my shampoo or face wash, Works great, Honeyquat is not enough time on hair to add anything. I would switch to protein keratin or oat protein,

Aaaah, so LotionCrafter did have an alternative to Liquid Crothix - thanks for the info! It looks like the INCI name is different between the two, but the function is very similar.

The percentage of surfactants has been confounding, as I've seen recipes all over the map with totals. I finally just had to pick a range and try it to see how my hair reacted. I did mostly like the performance of Batch #1 (too thick), as it lathered really well and my hair felt squeaky upon rinsing. But the consistency was too thick and I almost felt like it was almost too lather-y, that it didn't fully rinse out without a lot of water. I feel that using 40% of these particular surfactants would intensify the undesirable qualities? This is just conjecture, as I have so little experience.

I used the honeyquat because Susan at SwiftCraftyMonkey writes highly of it, and I'm easily influenced. haha But both you and Saranac have mentioned it could be eliminated, and I'm not totally sold on using ingredients like this in shampoo since it's rinsed off so quickly. So my next batch will not use it. I do have both hydrolyzed quinoa protein and hydrolyzed oat protein, and am experimenting with both to see which I like better (and now I'm off to check out protein keratin).

Thanks, Dahila, I really appreciate your input!

 

[Saranac]

Personally, I would try dropping the percentage of honeyquat down before eliminating it all together. While I generally agree that most conditioning ingredients are better off in a conditioner, I make an exception with polyquat 10. Without it, my hair was very draggy after rinsing the shampoo out. It felt a lot like when I tried using CP soap for shampoo. The PQ10 helped to add slickness. I hope my previous posts didn't come off as a "take it out" request as that wasn't my intention; I was merely commenting on what I thought might be contributing to the thickness.

As for the concentration of surfactants. . . .

While I love me some Swift, it bothers me that Susan (as scientific as she is) provides surfactant guidelines based on "what comes out of the bottle" and not based on the active surfactant matter. As a result, her recommended percentage of surfactants often fall in the 30-50%. But at All In My Hands, she provides recommendations based on the concentration of surfactants; her ASM for shampoo falls in the 10-15% range. Essentially the same as Susan, they just explain it differently. I spend a lot of time reading over at the ChemistsCorner, and 10-15% seems to be a generally agreed upon amount for a liquid shampoo.

And one last thing before I exhaust my knowledge of shampoo. I'm not sure what the pH of your shampoo looks like, HowieRoll, but if you find it needs to be adjusted down with citric (or some other) acid, do that before thickening with salt. The citric (or rather the result of its reaction with the basic surfactants) may contribute some thickening.

 

[DeeAnna]

Very helpful discussion -- I'm following with interest! I haven't made liquid shampoo or conditioner, but I've made several batches of shampoo bars and conditioner bars. The conditioner recipe is good, but I'm still figuring out the shampoo bar recipe. Your discussion has helped me figure out a few things to try next time.

 

[HowieRoll]

Thank you, Saranac, for your additional thoughts! I hear you about the honeyquat, and think the bottom line is I'm just going to have to experiment with it (including varying percentages) and leaving it out entirely. I'm so on the fence about how many additives to use with shampoo, given its primary function is to clean and not necessarily condition. For instance, many of the chemists over at Chemist Corner (I so love that forum!) have a dim view of panthenol, yet Susan at SCM seems to love it. I suppose it's a personal preference.

These experiments aren't going to be fast moving, as I feel an obligation to use up the entire test batch before moving on to the next. It's a lot like CP soap, in that the process can't be rushed. Boo.

And your insights on the AS is very illuminating to me. I think a lot of my disconnect has been not understanding (or seeing) the relationship between total surfactants (which I've seen suggested to be in the 30-40% range) and what that boils down to as total active surfactants. It is something I'm going to pay a lot more attention to now, and I thank you for bringing that up! Have I mentioned how steep this learning curve has been? yowza.

The pH is something I'm embarrassed to say I've not measured, as I do not have testing strips, and don't know how accurate they are? I avoided buying glucosides (coco/decyl) for the sole purpose they have a high pH and have to be adjusted down, and thought (but could be wrong) the other ingredients chosen were in an acceptable pH range for hair. Now that I write that, it seems a little, um, un-scientific.

Sorry for these long-winded replies - it's a lot to process!

 

[HowieRoll]

Very helpful discussion -- I'm following with interest! I haven't made liquid shampoo or conditioner, but I've made several batches of shampoo bars and conditioner bars. The conditioner recipe is good, but I'm still figuring out the shampoo bar recipe. Your discussion has helped me figure out a few things to try next time.

Or maybe it will help you figuring out what not to try!

 

[Saranac]

I'm right there with you, HowieRoll! I've been working on liquid shampoo for well over a year now. I thought it would go quicker, but there is some sort of magic in the commercial stuff that I can't quite figure out. . . .

I love the ChemistsCorner, but I've never posted--well out of my league! But I really respect Perry and I find my opinions are starting to align with his (I want to be Perry when I grow up!). The whole panthanol thing has me stumped. Susan is a supporter, but Perry, not so much. Definitely do some knock-out experiments. With panthanol, I sometimes put it in 100g trial batches. . . sometimes I don't. I really haven't noticed a difference. But the PQ10--I won't make shampoo without it, and I can definitely tell when it's not there!

As for pH. . . I use these strips. (If and) when I get to the point where I'm comfortable selling shampoo, I'll look at a pH meter. But for now, the strips are working, and I can tell from how my hair feels and acts if the pH is wrong for me. In fact, I only recently started using a glucoside, and I added it to my tried-and-tested formula (with a good pH), and I didn't re-check. . . my hair new the difference!

 

[HowieRoll]

As for pH. . . I use these strips. (If and) when I get to the point where I'm comfortable selling shampoo, I'll look at a pH meter. But for now, the strips are working, and I can tell from how my hair feels and acts if the pH is wrong for me. In fact, I only recently started using a glucoside, and I added it to my tried-and-tested formula (with a good pH), and I didn't re-check. . . my hair new the difference!

You know, I had them in my cart to purchase but talked myself out of them. The order costs were mounting and for some reason that $3.35 was the tipping point. Drasted. Well, they are on the growing list for next time.

I've never posted on the Chemist's Corner forum either - way too intimidating even though they seem like a nice bunch. But I love reading through it regularly and have learned quite a bit, although will readily admit sometimes I feel I'm only really comprehending about 20% of what they are saying.

 

[Saranac]

You know, I had them in my cart to purchase but talked myself out of them. The order costs were mounting and for some reason that $3.35 was the tipping point. Drasted. Well, they are on the growing list for next time.

You can buy a box of 100 on Amazon for $16.30--and free shipping! I've purchased from both LotionCrafter and this Amazon seller.

The pH of your surfactants seem to be in the "hair-friendly" range--as are the quinoa and honeyquat. You might just be where you need to be, and without testing! Unfortunately for me, the surfactants I have on hand are all fairly basic.

 

[HowieRoll]

I wanted to give an update to this thread for anyone following and/or who might come across it in the future.

For reference, I have thick, medium-length, non-color treated hair. It can have a slight curl if left alone to air dry, but blow-dries out stick straight easily. I also wash and condition my hair daily.

As it turns out, the two recipes from Post #1 were not great, not great at all. It appears viscosity was the least of the issues. Firstly, they lathered extremely well, but too much, as it was difficult to rinse out completely and my hair would feel too sqeaky-squeaky clean. Secondly, after a couple weeks of daily use my hair was starting to feel like brittle straw once it dried. And I could feel it in the shower, too, as after I would rinse away the shampoo it felt like there was a thick, tangled Brillo pad on my head and there would have been no way to comb through it without using the conditioner. Thirdly, they made my scalp itch.

Speaking of conditioner, I've also been developing one to use in conjunction with the shampoo (my hair is too thick to only shampoo - it always needs a conditioner). I would be happy to share that process with anyone interested, as I've been pleased on that end.... so far. It's early stages, though!

Taking advice from this thread, as well as doing re-research (re-reading things I'd forgotten I'd read in the first place), I lowered the active surfactant matter (ASM) on batch #3 to 12.57% and it really did wonders. The great lather was still there (albeit toned down to a more appropriate amount) but the Brillo-pad effect and itching were gone after a couple days. And today I made another batch and lowered the ASM even more, to 10.66%, although it will be another week or so before batch #3 is gone and I start using batch #4.

I am still fighting viscosity issues, as I tried a 50% solution of citric acid in varying amounts to thicken batch numbers 2 & 3. Batch #2 thickened nicely (higher ASM%), but batch #3 thickened to almost a solid after 24 hours and then with time started to thin out completely. Chemistry is strange. For today's batch #4 I tried adding 0.5% xanthan gum (dispersed in glycerine) to the water phase, but it remains to be seen what will happen with time.

Lastly, and this may be totally obvious to everyone else, I struggled and struggled to melt the sodium cocoyl isethionate (SCI) with the first couple batches. Then I discovered on batch #3 that using a lidded mason jar to heat it in a double boiler for 10 minutes, then grinding it up with a fork, then adding the sodium lauroyl sarcosinate (powder) and heating it again for 10 minutes before adding the recipe's boiling (distilled) water to the jar and continuing to heat the entire thing in a double boiler makes it melt completely. Phew.

And there you have it, the testing continues...