Liquid soap watery at 1:1 ratio

[StarsRUs]

So I make liquid soap all the time and my standard rule is, soap paste weight must be diluted with hot water, double the weight of the soap paste and if needed I’ll add a bit more water in small quantities if it needs a little more diluting.

Now a few days ago I made liquid shampoo, and I used the same rules, unfortunately my soap got super watery so I had to thicken it with salt. This of course didn’t go so well and my soap got too thick even though for a moment it didn’t seem like it so I added the soap to the bottles, overnight it turned into a big thick substance that wouldn’t move. So I took it all out, diluted it again and thought it was of a good consistency, added it to the bottles again and yep, next day it was super thick again… so I decided to make a whole new batch yesterday and instead of doubling the paste weight in water, I used the same weight of water as the soap paste. The soap paste was 2200 grams so I weighed the water to the same weight, heated it and let it dilute till the next day which is now.

I just checked my soap and it’s again as watery as it was when I used double the amount of water!! I thought I’d be on the safe side when adding much less water so I could dilute it slowly and get it that honey like consistency. I just don’t understand why it’s going wrong does anyone know what could cause this?

My recipe:
Almond oil 10%
Babassu oil 15%
Castor oil 12,5%
Coconut oil 10%
Jojoba oil 10%
Lard 20%
Tallow 22,5%

Replaced the water lye mixture with ACV and added silk to the hot lye mix.

Added glycerin to the soap paste and water mix. Which I always do with my liquid soaps.

Does anyone know why my liquid soap is so watery? Because I normally with my other soaps always double the soap paste weight in water…. As I’ve seen and read from other soap makers as well…

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Does anyone know why my liquid soap is so watery?

It's just the nature of the beast.
Honestly? It is next to impossible to diagnose and suggest remedies with all you have going on there. There are about as many ways to make LS as there are LS'ers. LOL You would be better off to simplify your recipe and do some research to analyze your method to discover for yourself what the problem may be.

My recipe:
Almond oil 10%
Babassu oil 15%
Castor oil 12,5%
Coconut oil 10%
Jojoba oil 10%
Lard 20%
Tallow 22,5%

Dilution rates vary with the oils used.
With 67.5% hard oils + 32.5% liquid oils I would dilute at 40% soap paste to 60% water.
Sequester for 2 weeks before making any adjustments.

It may be helpful for you to read through this recipe. It results in a lovely LS with the same viscosity as shampoo. You don't need to add the rosin -- just Coconut & Castor (for lather and texture) + Almond Oil (beneficial for hair)

ZANY'S FLAXSEED SHAMPOO

 

[StarsRUs]

It's just the nature of the beast.
Honestly? It is next to impossible to diagnose and suggest remedies with all you have going on there. There are about as many ways to make LS as there are LS'ers. LOL You would be better off to simplify your recipe and do some research to analyze your method to discover for yourself what the problem may be.

Dilution rates vary with the oils used.
With 67.5% hard oils + 32.5% liquid oils I would dilute at 40% soap paste to 60% water.
Sequester for 2 weeks before making any adjustments.

It may be helpful for you to read through this recipe. It results in a lovely LS with the same viscosity as shampoo. You don't need to add the rosin -- just Coconut & Castor (for lather and texture) + Almond Oil (beneficial for hair)

ZANY'S FLAXSEED SHAMPOO

Thank you for your reply. I figured it must have something to do with the oils used. I will try to adjust the ingredients, use less liquid oils, because this problem never happened with my 100% tallow LS.

 

[DeeAnna]

You can't apply dilution information for one liquid soap recipe to another. The fatty acid profile makes a big difference in how each soap will behave.

Start from scratch with each recipe -- dilute with caution until you know what works best for that recipe. And bear in mind that each batch of soap made with the same recipe might not behave exactly the same. Even though I might have a rule of thumb for a given recipe, I still add the last bits of water more slowly to each batch of diluted soap so I can compensate for variations from batch to batch.

"...my soap got super watery so I had to thicken it with salt. This of course didn’t go so well ... I decided to make a whole new batch yesterday and instead of doubling the paste weight in water, I used the same weight of water as the soap paste.... I just checked my soap and it’s again as watery as it was when I used double the amount of water!!..."

I gather the first batch of diluted soap had salt as a thickener and the second batch did not? If so, they aren't the same recipe anymore and it's unrealistic to expect the two to behave the same.

Once you add a salt to a liquid soap, the chemistry changes. Even if you use the exact same batch of paste to make a diluted soap with no salt and another second diluted soap with salt, the two portions will still behave differently due to the salt.

Another thing I'll add is this recipe has a relatively low percentage of oleic acid in it -- I normally shoot for around 50% give or take and this recipe is under 30% oleic. I've found that low oleic recipes can be trickier to dilute, although the added stearic and palmtic acids from the lard and tallow might compensate for the low oleic content in this recipe.

Also don't be too fast to thicken with salt ... work on understanding how to dilute this recipe without reaching for a thickener right away. Once you find an optimum way to dilute with water alone, then you might use salt to tweak the viscosity. And experiment with samples, not the whole batch. I might have 10 little cups of soap on my counter when I'm tweaking the dilution and/or playing with a thickener.

 

[Servant4Christ]

You can't apply dilution information for one liquid soap recipe to another. The fatty acid profile makes a big difference in how each soap will behave.

Start from scratch with each recipe -- dilute with caution until you know what works best for that recipe. And bear in mind that each batch of soap made with the same recipe might not behave exactly the same. Even though I might have a rule of thumb for a given recipe, I still add the last bits of water more slowly to each batch of diluted soap so I can compensate for variations from batch to batch.

"...my soap got super watery so I had to thicken it with salt. This of course didn’t go so well ... I decided to make a whole new batch yesterday and instead of doubling the paste weight in water, I used the same weight of water as the soap paste.... I just checked my soap and it’s again as watery as it was when I used double the amount of water!!..."

I gather the first batch of diluted soap had salt as a thickener and the second batch did not? If so, they aren't the same recipe anymore and it's unrealistic to expect the two to behave the same.

Once you add a salt to a liquid soap, the chemistry changes. Even if you use the exact same batch of paste to make a diluted soap with no salt and another second diluted soap with salt, the two portions will still behave differently due to the salt.

Another thing I'll add is this recipe has a relatively low percentage of oleic acid in it -- I normally shoot for around 50% give or take and this recipe is under 30% oleic. I've found that low oleic recipes can be trickier to dilute, although the added stearic and palmtic acids from the lard and tallow might compensate for the low oleic content in this recipe.

Also don't be too fast to thicken with salt ... work on understanding how to dilute this recipe without reaching for a thickener right away. Once you find an optimum way to dilute with water alone, then you might use salt to tweak the viscosity. And experiment with samples, not the whole batch. I might have 10 little cups of soap on my counter when I'm tweaking the dilution and/or playing with a thickener.

Thank you once again for such valuable information! Do you know if there a book I can purchase to learn more about fatty acid profiles in the context of soapmaking (both bar and liquid)? Though I've learned a lot here on the forums, I would love to learn more, particularly about how the fatty acid profile relates to dilution in LS.

 

[DeeAnna]

Thank you once again for such valuable information! Do you know if there a book I can purchase to learn more about fatty acid profiles in the context of soapmaking (both bar and liquid)? Though I've learned a lot here on the forums, I would love to learn more, particularly about how the fatty acid profile relates to dilution in LS.

I don't know of any book that gives definitive answers about how fatty acid content affects soap properties. I've tried to cover some aspects of this in my "soapy stuff" articles, but honestly, a person can only offer generalities, not specifics. The fatty acid profile is important, but it is only one variable of many in soap making. It's possible to change the performance of a soap with other ingredients, not just by varying the % of fatty acids.

You have to look at the whole picture of a given soap to draw any conclusions about that soap. And what applies to that soap might not apply to another soap formulation.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Do you know if there a book I can purchase to learn more about fatty acid profiles in the context of soapmaking (both bar and liquid)?

"Fatty Acids"as they relate to bar soap has been the topic of many threads here. Use the SEARCH feature in the upper right corner of this page to read more. Here's just one:

https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/blog/the-most-popular-fatty-acid-profiles-in-soapmaking/

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I don't know of any book that gives definitive answers about how fatty acid content affects soap properties. I've tried to cover some aspects of this in my "soapy stuff" articles, but honestly, a person can only offer generalities,

True. However, some authors of the early soapmaking books covered the subject quite well -- Susan Miller Cavitch (2), Ann Bramson, Catherine Bardey, Anne Watson (many), and others.

https://www.thriftbooks.com/browse/...s=mostPopular-desc&b.p=1&b.pp=30&b.oos&b.tile
"Hands down, Soap Naturally by Patrizia Garvena and Marina Tadiello is the absolute "must have" book for all natural, homemade, handmade soap makers! Very rare and difficult to find. For novices and masters alike." That book grew out of an Australian online soapmaking group many moons ago, SoapNaturally.com. I was privileged to be a member for as long as it existed. Much of what I Iearned there is still useful today. It was a truly international group where I met members from all over the world.

For Liquid Soap, Catherine Failor wrote "the Bible" on Making Natural Liquid Soaps. It was published in 2000. She covers fatty acids and what each oil brings to the soap in the first 6 pages and then explains the roles of sulfonated castor oil (aka "Turkey Red" oil), lanolin, jojoba and waxes and many more additives and ingredients. Although her method is passé, and the information is poorly organized, it is still the best book covering all the basics of liquid soap making.

@Servant4Christ Check your local library. When I first started in 2003, I borrowed all the books my library had for making soap and about essentail oils. There were at least a couple of dozen. Some I just skimmed; others I read several chapters. It was a good way for me to learn which books to purchase for my reference library. I still refer to them to this day.

 

[DeeAnna]

The questions being asked of late by the OP and others seem to be looking for black-and-white answers -- if I do XYZ with the fatty acid profile, then the soap will behave like ABC. The black-and-white nature of the Soapcalc "numbers" (the numbers for creamy, bubbly, hardness, etc.) imply that this can be done -- a person can design a "perfect" soap recipe by tweaking the fatty acid profile until it fits the Soapcalc guidelines. Sooner or later, most soap makers quickly realize "the numbers" truly don't provide that level of control.

The books authored by Cavitch, Failor, Garvena, Watson, et al. don't do any more to explain what the fatty acids bring to soap than the better soapmaking websites do. I've read most of these books -- I'm a fan of Anne Watson -- and I've learned some good things about soap making, but none of them were all that enlightening about how the fatty acid profile affects soap.

Kenna at Modern Soapmaking has an article on her website where she analyzed the fatty acid profiles of many soap recipes and drew some conclusions about typical fatty acid profiles. I'd say that's far more useful to give people a general idea of what a typical fatty acid profile looks like for the recipes she studied.

 

[AliOop]

Great answer, @DeeAnna!

The additional complication I see is that everyone's perception of the described qualities also varies. Soap that I feel has "nice slip," might feel "greasy" to someone else. A soap that, to someone else, feels like it leaves a film that hasn't rinsed clean, may feel "conditioning" to me. TEHO.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Kenna at Modern Soapmaking has an article on her website where she analyzed the fatty acid profiles of many soap recipes and drew some conclusions about typical fatty acid profiles..

I agree. See post #7 where I linked Kenna's take on FAs.

a person can design a "perfect" soap recipe by tweaking the fatty acid profile until it fits the Soapcalc guidelines. Sooner or later, most soap makers quickly realize "the numbers" truly don't provide that level of control.

I've been using SoapCalc to design recipes since I first joined a forum in 2004 at age 61. It's not for everyone but it works for me and beginners like me! It has been my co-pilot on my soapy journey ever since and I am grateful for that.

I was self-taught by the books I mentioned. That was all that was available at the time. (No YouTube.) The idea of so-called "Perfect Soap" is a goal, rather than a reality, and totally subjective. A goal that I have been able to achieve to my satisfaction over time and with experience. I didn't have the advantage of a Science background when I first started making soap, nor did I need it to get to where I am 20 years later.

Soap Calc is good for someone like me who relates easily to the numbers vs being mostly clueless when it comes to understanding and retaining FA profiles in order to achieve my desired end... especially at this age where memory loss is like walking into an empty room.