Liquid soap has water but no preservative?

[Mrs.Larios]

I'm really interested in doing liquid Soap I just can't understand why you don't add preservative? I thought anything that has water needed a preservative. Just when I thought I got the bases down on bath and body products I'm back to being confused all over again thanks for all your help and tips!

 

[Susie]

It is soap, not lotion. The pH should be high enough to prevent microbial growth. Some people use preservatives, but I do not. I have a LOT of allergies, and that is why I started making soap in the first place. So, I avoid adding anything unnecessary. If I were selling my soap, I probably would use a preservative, just out of an abundance of caution. I also make my own soap from scratch.

 

[FGOriold]

Susie is right - the thinking is that the high pH of liquid soap makes it an undesirable environment for bacterial growth - the higher the pH, the more hostile the environment. Yeast and mold will grow in lower pH products though. Most liquid soaps will settle at a pH of 8.5 - 10 (taking the pH any lower than 8.5 will cause it to cloud and start separating back out into oils and alkali as the nature of true soap is to be an alkaline product). The lower the pH of your soap, the higher the chance that your environment will be able to host the bacteria, molds, yeast and fungi. Many people, myself included, add additives to our liquid soap during or after dilution that also help create a more hospitable environment for these things (proteins, extracts, clays in cream soap, any type of botanical). The concentration of soap can also play a role (the higher the soap paste concentration, the less hospitable the environment, the more water, which is necessary for foamer bottles for instance, the more hospitable the environment.)

When it comes to deciding whether or not to preserve your liquid soap, you cannot just pick a preservative. The preservative you choose must be water soluble or appropriate for aqueous solutions and perform in a high pH product. Most have pH restrictions that are a pH of 8 or below. Here in the US we appear to have two choices for a single preservative system. Suttocide A and liquid germall plus. Suttocide A is effective up to a pH of 12 and while liquid germall literature indicates a upper pH limit of 8, we have received confirmation from microbiologists who are experts in the field of cosmetic preservatives and work in that field that liquid germall will be effective in liquid soap. Both are heat sensitive and added to cool diluted soap in very small amounts (.3% - .5%). The Suttocide A does have one negative in that it will react with citral which is a component in many citrus essential and fragrance oils and even some that you would not expect it to be in and will turn your soap light pink to deep red. I used it with Brambleberrys White Tea and Ginger and had light pink soap after 36 hours. Therefore, you must test your fragrance or EO on a small batch of soap when using suttocide A.

The use of preservatives is a personal choice especially if you are making liquid soap for your own personal use. It is just as important to employ a clean and sterile manufacturing environment to start with.

The experts in the field of cosmetic preservatives have said to us in another group, as a general rule - if your pH is 10 or greater, no need to preserve, under 10, preserve - but again, each soapmaker can make that choice for themselves and I am not trying to push preservatives, just share what I have learned so others can do further research to make an informed decision that works for them. Again, many factors come into play when making this choice and the pH of the product is just one of them.

 

[seven]

i don't preserve when it's for my own use, but for selling, i do. it's just personal preference and safety precaution.

my 1st batch of LS, i still keep a bottle. no preservative, no funky stuff so far. it's been months.

that said, i don't take chances when it's a product that is intended for selling. i just have no clue what the customer will do to it once it left my hands. i use liquid germall plus for my LS and other b&b products. it's broad spectrum and paraben free, which i like.

 

[PrairieLights]

but liquid germall does have propylene glycol - a "mixed review" ingredient. there has to be a wiz out there who can help us, for safety precautionary reasons, with a non-controversial preservative for the LS we sell............ calling all WIZ's!!!:yawn: (not a ywan - it's a call!) <3

 

[lsg]

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=42659

 

[cmzaha]

I do preserve mine, because I have had Castor LS for mold on the top of the jar lid. To me if it is on the jar lid it is probable that it is in the soap itself. So I now preserve all my ls after dilution. I also posted at one time I did not preserve ls only cream soap, that has now changed.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...mold on the top of the jar lid..."

I was intrigued by a research article about the use of preservatives in B&B products. The mold or bacterial growth is often not in or on the main body of product, but instead is often at the edges of the product, on the lid, on the tube of the spray mechanism, or on the walls of the container.

The reason why this happens is the amount of preservative present in these areas is very small. Once it's gone, it's gone -- the preservative levels cannot be renewed in these areas from the main body of product. Also, the likelihood of microbes being introduced from the open air to these areas is high. This argues for a good preservative, certainly, but also for effective sanitation of containers before they are filled and for choosing containers that minimize outside contamination (for example, a squeeze tube or pump dispenser vs. an open jar).

 

[cmzaha]

I always put my storage jars including lids in my smaller canner to help stearilize, after they have dried I spray all with 91% alcohol, so maybe th lid problem was from opening and pouring. This castor ls was not preserved. Thankyou for the info, I sure understand what you are saying DeeAnna. All of main batches of ls are in large tote size containers this was just a single oil batch. Will, start using something other than jars

 

[IrishLass]

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents. Back in 2012 I made a batch of cream soap- the only batch I ever made, as it turns out . Anyway, after it had rotted, I removed a portion of it to whip up and scent, while storing the rest of it naked/plain/unscented in a closed bucket at room temp.

To the portion that I had removed, I had added sodium lactate, FO, and tetrasodium EDTA (mostly because of our hard water, but for other purposes, too). Then I whipped it up into a beautiful white, creamy concoction and used a little bit with which to wash my hands and thought to myself, "Hmmmm...this is some interesting stuff, but I don't like it anywhere near as much as I like my creamy version of glycerin liquid soap, so I'll stick to making the GLS instead." Then I promptly scooped up my whipped, scented portion of cream soap into 2 canning jars, screwed the caps on, left them to sit on the shelf, and then completely forgot about them.

I completely forgot about the enclosed bucket of naked/plain/unscented cream soap, too.

That was 2 years ago. Now, fast forward through those years to just two weeks ago when I was installing new shelving in my curing room. As I was rearranging things, I found the 2 canning jars of scented cream soap that I had made, plus my bucket of naked/plain/unscented cream soap, and had a look-see.

The finished soap in my canning jars was pure white and still in the whipped shape that I had left them. I didn't open the jars at that point, I just looked at them through their glass enclosures. Encouraged that I did not see anything growing in the jars, I then opened up my bucket of naked/plain/unscented....

The soap that greeted me from inside the bucket had turned to a pale yellow/orange color (original color was pearly off-white), and it smelled old and stale- like oil way past its prime. I didn't see anything black or fuzzy growing in it, but I deemed it unusable because of the smell and the off-color and promptly threw it away.

Then I returned my attention to my jars of the scented/whipped portions and opened them. In contrast to the plain bucket portion, these smelled beautiful and clean and as fresh as the day I made them, and although I don't have lab tests to prove it, I lean heavily to the theory that this was due to the presence of the EDTA.

Tetrasodium EDTA is not a preservative, per se. In other words, it does not actively attack/kill bacteria or yeast like Phenonip or Germall, etc..do, but it does help at keeping bacteria at bay by starving them of their food. I use it as a preservative booster in conjunction with Penonip in my lotion formula, and although I do not use preservatives in my glycerin liquid soaps, I do add EDTA to them when I dilute. EDTA is also very good at helping soap to lather better in hard water and at preventing DOS in bar soaps.

Anyway, I started adding EDTA to my liquid soaps after reading this very interesting discussion over at the Dish (start at post #997 by silverdoctor): http://www.thedishforum.com/forum/i...7-glycerin-method-liquid-soap/page-40?hl=edta Silverdoctor's posts are really interesting and informative. He's a retired doctor whose experiences in the medical field in regards to soap and bacteria served to shed light on the subject. What he brought to the discussion served to help me to decide on the preservative issue for my own liquid soap.

For what it's worth, I should mention that my batches of glycerin liquid soap are small, one-pound batches. I only dilute enough to make 16 oz. of finished liquid soap at a time out of the paste, and I store the remaining paste sealed in an airtight Ziploc bag in my refrigerator until needed.

Everyone will need to make their own judgment call on the preservative question based on their own liquid soap formulas/circumstances/needs, but I just thought I'd explain why I do what I do with my own.


IrishLass

 

[cmzaha]

Thankyou for the link IrishLass. Heading there to read it :clap:

 

[PrairieLights]

Thank you Irish Lass! Read it, printed it... EDTA sounds like a good compromise. (and of course - clean and sterilize!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
I like that he shared about essential oils being a help too... And education... always my favorite thing to do - (informing customers)
Thanks to all who contribute! I love this place!:grin:

 

[Susie]

I followed your link and got this:

The community administrator requires all members to sign in.

I am not, to my knowledge, a member there, but I will rectify that with all possible speed.

 

[DeeAnna]

I enjoyed SilverDoctor's posts ... I take it he is no longer posting? If so, a great loss.....

 

[Ely]

preservative for liquid soap

Thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge, I have a question.
Dr Bronner's liquid soap, based on the label seems it does not have a preservative and on their website it is said their soap's pH are around 8.9.
I have no idea this pH is high enough to prevent bacterial growth or not.
I appreciate if someone make it clear for me.

Susie is right - the thinking is that the high pH of liquid soap makes it an undesirable environment for bacterial growth - the higher the pH, the more hostile the environment. Yeast and mold will grow in lower pH products though. Most liquid soaps will settle at a pH of 8.5 - 10 (taking the pH any lower than 8.5 will cause it to cloud and start separating back out into oils and alkali as the nature of true soap is to be an alkaline product). The lower the pH of your soap, the higher the chance that your environment will be able to host the bacteria, molds, yeast and fungi. Many people, myself included, add additives to our liquid soap during or after dilution that also help create a more hospitable environment for these things (proteins, extracts, clays in cream soap, any type of botanical). The concentration of soap can also play a role (the higher the soap paste concentration, the less hospitable the environment, the more water, which is necessary for foamer bottles for instance, the more hospitable the environment.)

When it comes to deciding whether or not to preserve your liquid soap, you cannot just pick a preservative. The preservative you choose must be water soluble or appropriate for aqueous solutions and perform in a high pH product. Most have pH restrictions that are a pH of 8 or below. Here in the US we appear to have two choices for a single preservative system. Suttocide A and liquid germall plus. Suttocide A is effective up to a pH of 12 and while liquid germall literature indicates a upper pH limit of 8, we have received confirmation from microbiologists who are experts in the field of cosmetic preservatives and work in that field that liquid germall will be effective in liquid soap. Both are heat sensitive and added to cool diluted soap in very small amounts (.3% - .5%). The Suttocide A does have one negative in that it will react with citral which is a component in many citrus essential and fragrance oils and even some that you would not expect it to be in and will turn your soap light pink to deep red. I used it with Brambleberrys White Tea and Ginger and had light pink soap after 36 hours. Therefore, you must test your fragrance or EO on a small batch of soap when using suttocide A.

The use of preservatives is a personal choice especially if you are making liquid soap for your own personal use. It is just as important to employ a clean and sterile manufacturing environment to start with.

The experts in the field of cosmetic preservatives have said to us in another group, as a general rule - if your pH is 10 or greater, no need to preserve, under 10, preserve - but again, each soapmaker can make that choice for themselves and I am not trying to push preservatives, just share what I have learned so others can do further research to make an informed decision that works for them. Again, many factors come into play when making this choice and the pH of the product is just one of them.

 

[Susie]

This thread is over two years old. You might do better posting a new thread.

But since I participated in this thread, and several of us are still around, I will endeavor to answer.

Liquid soap has a high pH. Too high for many pathogens to survive in. When you use clean bottles, utensils, etc, you don't introduce anything that can hurt you.

I do not use preservatives either. I dilute small amounts that we can use in a timely fashion, (say a month or so). Nothing has a chance to grow in that time. I kept a small bottle of diluted soap for over two years with no growth of anything observable using my child's old microscope. That is not a scientific result by any stretch of the imagination, but it is good enough for me.

I do not sell liquid soap. I would absolutely, positively use a preservative if I sold. You can't control what people will do with your product after you sell it. I would not want to take a chance on being sued.

 

[Ely]

Dear Susie thanks a lot for your reply.
So to be on the safe side adding preservative is necessary. what preservative do you recommend?
- Liquid Germall plus: it is not officially rated to be effective for liquid soap. it is effective over pH range 3 to 8. but on the web some people use this for their liquid soaps.
- Suttocide A: is a formaldehyd releaser and irritating even in low usage rate.
what preservatives do you recommend for liquid soaps? Is there any other preservative which is suitable for liquid soap, somewhat organic and natural? Thanks a lot for your help and appreciate it.

 

[Susie]

I do not now, nor have I ever used a preservative. If you wait until tomorrow, you will get others answers. They know far better than I.

However, I can tell you that no preservative is organic or "natural". But "natural" is a word without a legal definition in the US. A conversation we are having on another thread:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=63169

 

[DeeAnna]

...Liquid Germall plus: it is not officially rated to be effective for liquid soap. it is effective over pH range 3 to 8. but on the web some people use this for their liquid soaps.

It works at higher pH than stated in the company literature, but the useage is an off-label use.

- Suttocide A: is a formaldehyd releaser and irritating even in low usage rate.

Actually, both Suttocide and Liquid Germall Plus are formaldehyde releasers. If formaldehyde irritates your skin, then that's a problem. Formaldehyde as supplied by preservatives is safe and usually well tolerated.

The potential harm from these preservatives is way overstated. You will ingest more formaldehyde from eating fresh apples, pears, and other fruits and vegetables than you will get on your skin from LGP or Suttocide when these preservatives are properly used. So it's important to keep the risk in perspective.

what preservatives do you recommend for liquid soaps? Is there any other preservative which is suitable for liquid soap, somewhat organic and natural?.

Liquid Germall Plus and Suttocide are the only preservatives suitable for high pH products like liquid soap. If neither of these is acceptable, then you'll have to do without. Many makers of liquid soap choose to not use preservatives. If you do want to use them, the options are limited.

 

[Ely]

Dear DeeAnna, thank you so much for your comprehensive post. You are right, I did not check the molecular structure of liquid Germall Plus, it is formaldehyde donor.
Seems both have the same issue and same usage rate (lotioncrafter). Does any of these have advantage over the other? Which one is your preference?
Thanks a lot