Liability and giving away soaps

[TessC]

I've just about reached saturation, lol. I have a LOT of soap on hand, more curing, and more batches to make very soon. I'm giving it away to friends and family but there's only so much soap they need, y'know? I could start making them all take a shoebox full of soap every time they step foot in the house, but I don't want to resort to that just yet.

I have some online friends and acquaintances who've expressed a lot of interest in trying my soaps, I've made it clear to them that I'm not ready or able to sell soap, but I wouldn't mind mailing a few bars here and there to some of them.

My question is about liability insurance, does one need it to give soaps away like that, or is the fact that it's a freebie mailed to a friend mean anything? I don't think any of these people would ever sue me if they slipped on a soap-slippery tub or anything, but with as litigation-happy as society is...yeah, I just dunno.

Also, what about giving soap to shelters? There are a few really good shelters and organizations in town that I wouldn't mind donating extra soaps to, but do you need insurance in place for that?

Thanks in advance. =)

 

[krissy]

i donate all my extras/uglies to the women's shelter and homeless shelters. i don't sell yet either so i don't have insurance.
i look at it like this.... i zap test all my bars, am thorough in my calculations and make sure i do everything i can to make a safe good bar of soap. i can give (and write off on taxes) all the soaps i wont use to places where they are desperate for them, so why not.

 

[Absinthe]

I am not a lawyer, and you should actually discuss this particular question with your lawyer.

That said, people are sue happy in the US. For what it is worth anyone can sue you for pretty much anything. Sometimes it is not even founded, but they count on people settling rather than going into court. This probably perpetuates this behavior, and keeps lawyers in business. Having insurance, can even make this worse.

As I understand it, for a case to even be considered, the plaintiff has to show loss, and prove that you were responsible to a particular percentage. That percentage may be different from state to state and by specific issue. You would have to be pretty negligent to get effectively sued with a handmade soap. It would be similar to cooking something and inviting someone to dinner. If they broke their tooth on a bone that was in a meat dish, the judge would says something like "sometimes meat has bones in it, and a reasonable person should be careful" however, if they broke their tooth on a stone that was in the corn bread the judge might decide that it was not reasonable to assume there might be anything in cornbread because reasonable cooks sift that stuff out. If you give out Mary Janes at Halloween and some kid is allergic to peanuts they can try and sue you, but likely the child solicited your for candy, not the other way around and the onus is on them and their family.

You don't really need intent to be liable, but you do need to be pretty wrong. Chances are slim that you would give out lye heavy soap. However, the possibility remains that there could be a lye pocket or something like that. Would it be reasonable for a person to expect that, like a chicken bone in chicken salad? If you use botanicals, you could have a twig or sharp piece of leaf material exposed that may cut someone. If they know that there is actual plant material in the soap is it reasonable that they be careful?

Those are the kind of things that will be asked by a lawyer/judge. Then what is loss? Are they makeup models and a scratch on the face makes them lose days of work, or perhaps the mild chemical burn from a lye pocket reddens their skin and they can't do their job as a dish washer...

I think, (remember I am not a lawyer) that as long as you are using reasonable care, and following good safe practices and not misrepresenting your product, and letting people know about any inclusions that they should not be expected to know (peanuts, tree nuts, pork products, sensitizing or irritating herbs etc...) The onus should be on them to take normal reasonable care in the use of the product in the manner for which it was designed. (e.g. if they eat it and it makes them sick, too bad, everyone knows you are not supposed to eat soap) But if they wash their hair with it and it all falls out, nobody expects that

 

[carebear]

it's not really about that. anyone can be sued for any reason. even if you take reasonable precautions you can be sued. whether the suit is valid, or whether a judgment can be won against you - it still could cost you a ton to defend yourself. Having insurance means much of the defense comes out of their pocket (if you have the right insurance, anyway) as the judgment will come out of their pocket.

but for the most part, people you give gifts to don't sue. nor do recipients of donations. So unless you are doing something grossly wrong or are working with very risky materials I PERSONALLY wouldn't worry.

 

[Absinthe]

it's not really about that. anyone can be sued for any reason. even if you take reasonable precautions you can be sued. whether the suit is valid, or whether a judgment can be won against you - it still could cost you a ton to defend yourself. Having insurance means much of the defense comes out of their pocket (if you have the right insurance, anyway) as the judgment will come out of their pocket.

but for the most part, people you give gifts to don't sue. nor do recipients of donations. So unless you are doing something grossly wrong or are working with very risky materials I PERSONALLY wouldn't worry.

That's what I was trying to say... Just way to wordy lately. Only thing I was getting at with the insurance is that if it is known that there is possibility of getting money from the insurance companies people are more likely to sue. Insurance companies have a reputation for settling without proof, because it is way cheaper than fighting it. This seems to breed frivolous lawsuits. (That is one way the system is broken) :S

 

[dagmar88]

Real funny. Like people would sue you because you have insurance without having a case. All businesses should have, and most do have insurance.
And like any decent insurance company would settle with the claim cause it's cheaper? No way, José.

ever thought of what would happen when you're sued cause you did make a mistake somewhere (could happen to the best of us) and you're not insured cause you're afraid of getting claims?

 

[Absinthe]

I am not saying having insurance is not important, especially if you have a business. I carry $1 million liability on my business (not soap) and hopefully I will never have to use it.

But you are definitely wrong if you don't believe that cases are settled for financial reasons regardless of legal standing. Look at the cases involving medical malpractice.

The fact that it happens at all, however, tends to fuel the litigious behavior and frivolous lawsuits that do go on. There is strong need of tort reform in the US partially because of this sort of garbage litigation.

And, no, I am not a Lawyer, and I do not currently work in the insurance or legal industry. I have worked in the insurance industry, and I have written laws, and dealt with the political machine at least at the state level. Not that it should matter.

 

[carebear]

wow quite a background. you've (correct me if I'm wrong) compounded allergy shots AND written laws. wow.

 

[Absinthe]

Yes, I wrote the actual text of a current law (regulating an industry that I am in) last year. And I did the allergy work back in 1985 or 1986 I don't remember which. And though I didn't mind giving them and performing the tests and all that stuff, I absolutely hated formulating them. You had to take each partial dose from the main vials with a separate hypodermic. You had to log and account for every one, as well as each time you pierced the vial's top. Then you had to account for all the times you stuck yourself or allowed the needle to accidentally touch any surface. You worked under a hood, that was constantly blowing cold air towards you so that if anything fell off of you like an eye lash or a flake of dead skin it would not contaminate the working surface.

In addition to that I had to collect air samples and hand count and identify each allergen pollen and spore under a microscope to post daily pollen counts. That sucked even worse than making the allergy serums.

For what it is worth, I am not currently working in any aspect of the medical industry. And I don't routinely attempt to draft legislation, though I may active lobby my government officials to try and further my agendas and those of my industry.

You haven't yet touched on all the areas in which I have experience. Give it time, there will be more.

 

[Zenobiah]

Hehe, Absinthe, you sound like me. My background is all over the place too!

 

[JenniferSews]

Yikes.

Well all bickering aside, I agree that anyone can sue you for any reason, but it's not likely to happen over a gift. I give my soap away all the time. I give lots of things away, I have even bake peanut butter cookies and given them away. Haven't been sued yet! It's soap, not plutonium. I'm no expert but I'd think your homeowners insurance should cover it if you are sued for a gift if you aren't in business.

 

[Absinthe]

Hehe, Absinthe, you sound like me. My background is all over the place too!

Yep, makes us just smart enough to piss off all our friends at parties, but not smart enough to be rich

 

[dagmar88]

Or hopefully smart enough to know money isn't all that nice when you have no one to share the joy with

 

[Absinthe]

hopefully

 

[KSL]

The answer is very simple.
You're not a business, you don't need business insurance.

Having said that, anyone can be sued for anything.
Absinthe is correct, you must be legally liable, meaning you must be negligent causing a person harm for them to SUCCESSFULLY sue you. (Of course that doesn't mean you wont incur defence costs if someone tries - somebody mentioned that above aswell).

You may have personal liabilty insurance through a homeowners policy, you should check into that.

The likliness of someone suing you for a gift you gave them, is slim.

 

[Absinthe]

You can always just tell them that if they sue you, then you will not give them any more soap.

 

[KSL]

You can always just tell them that if they sue you, then you will not give them any more soap.

I love reading stories about lawsuits..... the things people think are the fault of others sometimes amuses me.

 

[Bubbles Galore]

Choose your recipients carefully. Test all of your soaps yourself first. Tell them how important their comments and feedback are to you and use them as testers. Don't put labels on your soap with any personal details just list ingredients. :wink:

 

[Larissa]

Is anyone here insured as a business selling soap? What types of insurance companies cover this?

"By day," I'm a lawyer with legal malpractice insurance, plus I'm a face painter/henna artist with entertainer's insurance.

So what does one get as "soap producer/distributer/seller" insurance? Is it covered by homeowners, generally? Or is there a specialty liability insurance for this?

 

[Zenobiah]

From what I have read, homeowners does not cover it, but I don't know where to get soapmaker insurance nor how much it costs.