Labeling woes

[Dorymae]

No you were right. I think a lot of the confusion happens because the EU has so much stricter standards that people assume we do too. When your in a big forum such as this and there are many people from all over the world it is easy to get confused.

 

[Lindy]

No you were right. I think a lot of the confusion happens because the EU has so much stricter standards that people assume we do too. When your in a big forum such as this and there are many people from all over the world it is easy to get confused.

I agree - even though this forum is predominately American there are other nationalities here that must follow different regulations. I think when we are discussing regs we should specify for which country we are talking about. Even though we share a border the Canadian labeling laws are sooooo different from the US's FDA regs. We could be on different continents for how different it is...

 

[rogue]

Ok, so here's a crazy question I'm stuck on after ready the FDA regs like 4 times:

Do I or do I not list ethyl alcohol on my handmade transparent bars? I'm using everclear 190 proof not denatured so label issue 1. Label issue 2 there is absolutely none in there by the time anybody sees this soap. Nada, zip. It's all evaporated. So does it fall into the processing/ defoaming it's gone poof rule?

Labeling is giving me more headaches than my stupid taxes at this point grumpy face

 

[KristaY]

I might say "I use the best ingredients available and I am proud of them so I list them fully on my package, that way I am both following the law and showing people exactly what they are purchasing." or something like that.

Well said, Maya! To the point without directly putting down the competitors that choose not to individually label their soaps. Very diplomatic and makes a positive statement about the care you give when creating your soaps.

 

[Dorymae]

Ok, so here's a crazy question I'm stuck on after ready the FDA regs like 4 times:

Do I or do I not list ethyl alcohol on my handmade transparent bars? I'm using everclear 190 proof not denatured so label issue 1. Label issue 2 there is absolutely none in there by the time anybody sees this soap. Nada, zip. It's all evaporated. So does it fall into the processing/ defoaming it's gone poof rule?

Labeling is giving me more headaches than my stupid taxes at this point grumpy face

You have a choice to label either what went into your soap (then you would include it) or what IS NOW in your soap (then you would not need to) If you want to list what is now in your soap you can list the oils as saponified oil of --------.

 

[rogue]

That makes me feel a bit better.

 

[Genny]

Ok, so here's a crazy question I'm stuck on after ready the FDA regs like 4 times:

Do I or do I not list ethyl alcohol on my handmade transparent bars? I'm using everclear 190 proof not denatured so label issue 1. Label issue 2 there is absolutely none in there by the time anybody sees this soap. Nada, zip. It's all evaporated. So does it fall into the processing/ defoaming it's gone poof rule?

Labeling is giving me more headaches than my stupid taxes at this point grumpy face

If you're labeling your soaps already by what's going in the pot, then you'd list the alcohol as well. Also, I remember reading somewhere about this, but it was with the alcohol in MP and the fact that there could be trace amounts of alcohol in it and that's why suppliers have it on the ingredient labels.

 

[Genny]

If you want to list what is now in your soap you can list the oils as saponified oil of --------.

The FDA does not recognize the words "saponified oil of". I asked them directly about this and they said that would be incorrect.

 

[SparksnFlash]

This is not a woe, this is an opportunity for you to explain to people why you label with your full ingredient listing according to the law.

I label all my soap and cosmetic products with the INCI and common names, with tinctures and other herbal items I label with the botanical name, common name, lot #, mfg date, ratios, etc. etc. etc.

I might say "I use the best ingredients available and I am proud of them so I list them fully on my package, that way I am both following the law and showing people exactly what they are purchasing." or something like that.

Nothing to add - Maya said it all!!

 

[Dorymae]

The FDA does not recognize the words "saponified oil of". I asked them directly about this and they said that would be incorrect.

I was told this was accepted. I have however been wrong before and certainly will be again. I'll double check that information.

I have sent an email to the FDA to clarify. I will post the letter and the response in full when I receive an answer.

 

[Celestial Balance]

saponified oils of is not correct. If you list what comes out of the pot it must be sodium cocoate, sodium olivate, etc..the actual chemical it turns into once it is soap. Now the hard part is this.... soap making creates glycerin..how much? You have to know how much to know where it falls in the list of ingredients and it DOES need to be included. Also there is the issue of superfatting, now you have sodium olivate AND you have olive oil..but in what amounts? Tossing it in at trace does not promise anything, so unless you pay for testing you can never have your soap properly labeled by what comes out of the pot. This would mean your labels are misbranded and that is whole different federal agency that can bite you. The best way to label is what goes into the pot.

As for everclear. I would never ever tell anyone that is what goes into my soap and I would never put it on a label. I would go with ethanol. If you list everclear then you are opening yourself up to the ATF and you do NOT want to do that.

Common name is acceptable for all ingredients EXCEPT herbs. Herbs must have both common name and INCI name. I just choose to do common and (INCI) in parenthesis and call it a day.

You do not have to divulge your EO blend as scent is protected but it is always a good idea to list it anyways. As someone else posted, better to be safe than sorry.

 

[HoneyLady]

Ergh! What a headache! It's almost as much fun as figuring taxes! :thumbdown:

It does not matter what the *FDA* says about "saponified oils of". The FDA rules apply to drugs and cosmetics. They specifically state their rules do not apply to SOAPS.

Technically, the Consumer Products Safety Commission is in charge of Soaps. Except, they have no enforcement authority and are not a government agency. :roll:

Unless you are making claims that your soap heals dry skin, soothes eczema, clears acne, is deodorant, or does anything besides clean your body, a soap is not regulated.

A syndet is regulated, and this is where much confusion arises. Don't compare yourself to the stuff on the grocery selves. Any bar making claims is a drug, and is regulated.

Heaven forbid it should be simple, or helpful to small businesses. :silent:

I don't know if it would be better to have labyrinthine rules a la the EU, or a confusing mess a la the US. Seems like we're darned if we do, and darned if we don't.

Good Luck!
~HoneyLady~

 

[CanaDawn]

Common name is acceptable for all ingredients EXCEPT herbs. Herbs must have both common name and INCI name. I just choose to do common and (INCI) in parenthesis and call it a day.

I'm glad I kept reading, because as a biologist, I couldn't fathom how common name was going to be better than the Latin (common names vary wildly, while the Latin is consistent)

 

[green soap]

In the USA, the Consumer Products Safety Commission regulates soap, NOT THE FDA.

Per their rules (the Consumer Products Safety Commission) soap must be labeled as follows:

It must say it is soap.

It must state the soap's weight.

It must state who you are (the soap manufacturer) and how to find you.

No ingredient list is needed.

Some of us (in the US) list ingredients to satisfy our customers. My customers read labels very carefully and they would be unhappy if I stopped listing the ingredients in my soaps. So I label my ingredients in the way that is the most helpful to them (plain English works well), and so they also realize I put some nice fancy ingredients in there (justifying the cost of the product). I also state that it is soap, how heavy and who I am of course (abiding by the rules we do have).

Also, it is incredible how many allergies there are. I realize I can just list 'essential oils' but this would not be helpful to someone trying to avoid let's say...rosemary. So I list all of them in the order used, and I know someone could copy my blends, which have taken a while to develop, but I rather have this situation than have someone with a specific EO allergy have a bad reaction to my soap. If they have a bad reaction to rosemary EO and I did not list it in the ingredients, then I feel it would be my fault (ethically, if not legally).

So I list every single ingredient, but I do it for my customers, not to follow the 'law' - which is non existent in the US. Also, I chose to list the ingredients that are in the final product, not what I start with, as I feel this is the most useful information to the consumer.

If your soap is a cosmetic then what I said above does not apply and you must abide by the FDA regulations. This is not so hard though, it just means listing the ingredients in the order used.

There was a question on super-fat and glycerin. Your glycerine is from 9% to 12% of the initial oil's weight, so in most cases your retained glycerine is above your super-fat in the list order. If you do salt soaps, normally super-fatted 20%, then your extra fat is above the glycerine.

 

[Dorymae]

If you are claiming moisturizing it is not a drug it is a cosmetic. If however you claim it helps to heal or treat any condition such as acne, or dermatitis then it is a drug, So you could need to know 3 regulations if you have different types of soap.

Regulations for soap - no claims
Regulations for cosmetic - claims like beautifies, moisturizes
Regulations for drugs - claims like helps acne, or damaged skin

 

[Celestial Balance]

In the USA, the Consumer Products Safety Commission regulates soap, NOT THE FDA.


So I list every single ingredient, but I do it for my customers, not to follow the 'law' - which is non existent in the US. Also, I chose to list the ingredients that are in the final product, not what I start with, as I feel this is the most useful information to the consumer.

You are correct if it is ONLY soap and ONLY cleans and you never say anything else like it is great for dry skin or moisturizing then you do not have to label. The problem with your statement is that the moment you do list ingredients you must do so correctly and in the same way that cosmetics list ingredients. Unless you are testing you cannot possibly know for sure the highest to lowest ingredients.

There was a question on super-fat and glycerin. Your glycerine is from 9% to 12% of the initial oil's weight, so in most cases your retained glycerine is above your super-fat in the list order. If you do salt soaps, normally super-fatted 20%, then your extra fat is above the glycerine.

If you are using one oil only I guess that might be easy to do but when you use more than one oil what is left over in the superfat would have to be listed too. Some oils produce more glycerin then others and some are more easily converted by the lye then others. Some have unsaponifiables and some do not. You would have to list every oils as sodium ____, and just plain _____ oil. That increases your label size! You would have to do a zero superfat, hot process it to full cook, zap test it and THEN add your super fat oil to even begin to come close to truly knowing what is in your finished product or pay for lab testing. I find most people list out of the pot because they think people are afraid of lye or they do not know how or are too timid to educate their clients. I enjoy any opportunity I have to educate someone. I have not lost a sale yet do to listing lye.

 

[HoneyLady]

As I understand it (there's your warning) if you ARE making claims for your soap -- moisturizing, or acne clearing, and therefore a cosmetic or drug -- your product must also be TESTED AND REGISTERED or you are committing fraud.

As has been noted, the regs are confusing, and not easily understood, so all the caveats apply. That was MY take away from much research and discussion.

I will also offer that my experience in tracking down regulations and their applications in several areas has led me to 2 conclusions: 1.) Most regulators and enforcement authorities often have muddy understandings of the regs they enforce themselves. 2.) A lot depends upon the agent you are speaking to just then, and what sort of day s/he has had.

As an example, got into a case of head scratching with the IRS a few years ago. One office sent a letter requesting X information and clarification, which I duly sent. A second office in a different state then sent me a letter asking WHY I had done that. I replied, and sent a copy of the first letter. It went back and forth for a while, getting conflicting data from the two offices ("you owe us money", "don't pay anything, we're sending a refund") for over a year. Finally, I was able to convince one agent to call the other, instead of both going through ME, to resolve the issue. Turns out BOTH were wrong, and their superiors agreed on an answer. :clap:

People do the best they can, with what they understand, with the least amount of fuss. But that can leave us with our heads spinning. :roll:

I list ingredients as a courtesy, but most people ASK, even as they read, I've discovered.

Also, I *believe* we are not required to list glycerin unless we have added it to the soap as an ingredient, as it is a natural by-product of the saponification process.

When I'm elected Queen of the Universe, you may be sure I'm going to simplify things! :angel:

~HoneyLady~

 

[rogue]

As for everclear. I would never ever tell anyone that is what goes into my soap and I would never put it on a label. I would go with ethanol. If you list everclear then you are opening yourself up to the ATF and you do NOT want to do that.

Common name is acceptable for all ingredients EXCEPT herbs. Herbs must have both common name and INCI name. I just choose to do common and (INCI) in parenthesis and call it a day.
.

Here's where I get into my mess. Inci states to use alcohol denatured. Which is not what I'm using. I'd list alcohol, I just acquire it as Everclear 191 because have you ever tried to just buy a gallon of denatured alcohol? It's easier to get God over for dinner on Sunday nite for dinner. They want you to buy it by the 55gallon drum &/or pay like $100 a gallon plus crazy shipping.
The glycerine/clear soap came out so beautiful & I know MP is way easier and similar but it's just so cool

 

[Dorymae]

As I understand it (there's your warning) if you ARE making claims for your soap -- moisturizing, or acne clearing, and therefore a cosmetic or drug -- your product must also be TESTED AND REGISTERED or you are committing fraud.

HoneyLady~

For cosmetics you do not need to register or be tested

For a drug, you must register. Your drug must be tested IF it is a new drug (ie there is no monograph for it existing) you also must meet strict GMP (good manufacturing practice) and open yourself for inspections.