Is CO the only one?

[wearytraveler]

My last couple of batches have had zero coconut oil. I did one as a curiosity and I rather enjoyed the way it felt, lathered (100% aloe vera juice and lots, LOTS, of sugar) and cleaned. I did another one just to see if the first wasn't a fluke and it, too, performed very well. So much so that I'm contemplating eliminating CO from my list going forward.
So this got me thinking that, even without the CO present I'm still getting cleaned, so that must mean that other oils are contributing to the cleansing factor even though SoapCalc shows me a cleansing factor of 1 when no CO is listed as an ingredient. I know, I know... this might be a no-brainer for many here but it's all new to me. So my questions for tonight are; is there a list of oils that have cleaning properties and if there isn't, can we start one? I figure this list would have coconut oil at the top and the next highest cleansing oil would be next down on the list and so on.
Again, this might be something that's common knowledge but almost a year making this stuff and I"m still learning.

 

[BattleGnome]

I don't know about a list or the science but I can add a few cents.

Soap is not necessarily what gets you clean. The friction of the scrubbing is what gets you clean. Soap just acts like a lubricant to separate the dirt and oils from your skin before you rinse it off. In the long run it's part of the reason you don't need super antibacterial whatever after mucking out the barn, with enough friction all the gross ends up down the drain. (There are places for antibacterial products but thousands of years of humans existing with animals without dying out lends credence to something.)

To spend more time looking at numbers, check out a castille. Very low cleansing but generations have sworn by it without any issue. Look at other single oil soaps. Lard is a common one, how does it compare to something like castor (a single oil soap that most people warn against).

In terms of what I make, I always aim for a lower cleansing number. I'm more likely to pick up a scrubbier bath poof or loofa rather than add more coconut to my recipe. (Though I'm still trying to settle on a go-to recipe and I will admit that I may end up with more coconut oil than I expected in the end.)

 

[SheLion]

Lauric and myristic acids are the ones responsible for the cleansing action. So oils and butters high in those acids will give you higher cleansing numbers on soapcalc. But to clarify, (credit to DeeAnna for this info) 'cleansing' is a misleading term because all soap will cleanse. Lauric and myristic acids are the ones that strip away more of the natural oils from skin, leading to the squeaky clean feeling. (Though to me it just leads to taut, dry skin.)

Nature's Garden has a fantastic pdf on the properties of many different oils and butters. You can download it from their site:
http://www.naturesgardencandles.com...es/item/soapoils/-soaping-oil-properties.html

I refer to this information constantly while formulating new recipes, or tweaking existing ones, because when you know the acid makeup of an oil, it's much easier to find a sub by looking for another oil with a similar makeup.

Edited to add:
Here's a list of the top ten cleansing oils/butters, in descending order, per a spreadsheet based on the Nature's Garden info above:

Myrstic acid
Coconut oil, fractionated
Murumuru buttter
Tucuma seed butter
Babassu oil
Coconut oil 76 degree
Cohune oil
Palm kernel oil flakes
Monoi de Tahiti oil
Saw palmetto oil

 

[Millie]

What they said ^^
And, soap molecules have a water loving (hydrophilic) end and an oil loving (hydrophobic) end. The hydrophobic end grabs oils (and the grime stuck to oils) from our skin to be washed away by water (which attaches to the soap molecules by the hydrophilic end). Battlegnome is also correct, scrubbing gives the best clean.

More than a decade ago I took an intro to biology class, where we had a little experiment: everyone stuck their thumb in a different substance: antibacterial soap, alcohol, or water. Only the person who stuck their thumb in water was allowed to rub their thumb and wipe their hand dry. Each of us then dabbed our thumbs on an agar plate to be incubated overnight. The next day, those plates were covered in a collection of happy colonies and cities of microbes, except for the water ony plates - the conclusion being, only scrubbing gets you clean, and why the heck were antibacterial soaps being sold for so long. I suppose another conclusion could be that wet microbes transfer better, but it was the first point I took away from class.

 

[earlene]

I don't know about a list or the science but I can add a few cents.

Soap is not necessarily what gets you clean. The friction of the scrubbing is what gets you clean. Soap just acts like a lubricant to separate the dirt and oils from your skin before you rinse it off. In the long run it's part of the reason you don't need super antibacterial whatever after mucking out the barn, with enough friction all the gross ends up down the drain. (There are places for antibacterial products but thousands of years of humans existing with animals without dying out lends credence to something.)

To spend more time looking at numbers, check out a castille. Very low cleansing but generations have sworn by it without any issue. Look at other single oil soaps. Lard is a common one, how does it compare to something like castor (a single oil soap that most people warn against).

In terms of what I make, I always aim for a lower cleansing number. I'm more likely to pick up a scrubbier bath poof or loofa rather than add more coconut to my recipe. (Though I'm still trying to settle on a go-to recipe and I will admit that I may end up with more coconut oil than I expected in the end.)

Friction. This is exactly what our Infection Control Nurse re-iterated at all hand-washing talks she gave to staff.

 

[lsg]

I am wondering how the friction of rubbing one's hands together can create a heat high enough to kill germs without damaging the skin. Not trying to be difficult, just a question.

https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=702

 

[DeeAnna]

I see your point, lsg, but I think you'd need to raise the temps much too high for too long in order to effectively kill microbes on your hands.

The best way I can think of to demonstrate this point is to look at a pasteurization chart. It shows you would need over 30 minutes of heating to sanitize something at 145 F (63 C). I don't think it's possible to pasteurize at lower temps -- off the top of my head, I am pretty sure some microbes can actually grow and thrive at temps below 140 F.

Don't know about you, but I don't think I'm up for sanitizing my hands for 30 minutes at 145 F. Ewwww!

 

[SheLion]

I am wondering how the friction of rubbing one's hands together can create a heat high enough to kill germs without damaging the skin. Not trying to be difficult, just a question.

https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=702

It's not the heat generated from the friction of rubbing your hands together that does it. It's the actual mechanical action of the hands rubbing together. I'm not sure of the exact mechanism that deals the fatal blow to the cooties but I suspect that the rubbing dislodges them and they then get washed down the drain. That or the rubbing squishes them but I think the first is more likely.

Either way, it's why antibacterial handsoap is unnecessary. Plus, people can't develop immunity to things they are not exposed to.

 

[SunRiseArts]

This is such interesting information! Thank you so much for sharing you all.

 

[wearytraveler]

Thanks for the link to that. Definitely worth keeping. Going to convert it to an Excel file for easy sorting.

Lauric and myristic acids are the ones responsible for the cleansing action. So oils and butters high in those acids will give you higher cleansing numbers on soapcalc. But to clarify, (credit to DeeAnna for this info) 'cleansing' is a misleading term because all soap will cleanse. Lauric and myristic acids are the ones that strip away more of the natural oils from skin, leading to the squeaky clean feeling. (Though to me it just leads to taut, dry skin.)

Nature's Garden has a fantastic pdf on the properties of many different oils and butters. You can download it from their site:
http://www.naturesgardencandles.com...es/item/soapoils/-soaping-oil-properties.html

I refer to this information constantly while formulating new recipes, or tweaking existing ones, because when you know the acid makeup of an oil, it's much easier to find a sub by looking for another oil with a similar makeup.

Edited to add:
Here's a list of the top ten cleansing oils/butters, in descending order, per a spreadsheet based on the Nature's Garden info above:

Myrstic acid
Coconut oil, fractionated
Murumuru buttter
Tucuma seed butter
Babassu oil
Coconut oil 76 degree
Cohune oil
Palm kernel oil flakes
Monoi de Tahiti oil
Saw palmetto oil

 

[earlene]

lsg, Washing hands does not kill germs in the first place. It washes stuff off of your hands. Germs may be attached to that 'stuff' and go down the drain as well. The purpose of friction is to 'loosen their grip' so to speak.

According to the World Health Organization, hand rubbing with sand or dirt is as effective as washing with soap (supported by Bangladesh study published in the Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygeine, 1991). See this WHO document for more information on hand hygiene.

 

[Steve85569]

lsg, Washing hands does not kill germs in the first place. It washes stuff off of your hands. Germs may be attached to that 'stuff' and go down the drain as well. The purpose of friction is to 'loosen their grip' so to speak.

According to the World Health Organization, hand rubbing with sand or dirt is as effective as washing with soap (supported by Bangladesh study published in the Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygeine, 1991). See this WHO document for more information on hand hygiene.

Does this mean I could be making dirt bars for the shower?:mrgreen:

I think I used that list of oils and their properties to set up my lye calc spreadsheet. It is a good one although some of you use oils that are not listed there.