Introduction

[johnnyusa]

No...you can't. And I'm not talking about Dr Bonners...I'm talking about Ivory, Jergens, Dial, Zest, Lever, Irish Spring, etc.

My local chain grocery store sell a 8-pack of Lever 2000 for $4.99...that's $0.62 a bar.

Using a basic recipe of Olive, Palm, Coconut and Castor Oils, the cost of my ingredients works out to be $0.59 a bar. Sounds great...right? But wait, I'm not done, Lever 2000 has fragrance. When I add an FO, my cost just went up to $1.05 a bar. But I'm not done...Lever 2000 is packaged. Now my bar is $1.32. But wait...I'm still not done because I haven't add my labor...making the soap, cutting the soap, packaging the soap...that bar is now $2.67. But I'm still not done because even though I'm making soap in my kitchen, I still have overhead. I use electricity, I use water, I use a portion of my kitchen to make soap, I use a portion of my garage to cure my soap, to store my soap, to store my ingredients, supplies and equipment. Can't forget equipment...scale, stick blender, bowls, spatulas, molds...those all cost money too. It may only be pennies per bar, but I still have add those costs so now we're up to around $3.00 a bar.

So tell me again how exactly $3.00 a bar is cheap than $0.62 a bar. FYI - I'm an accountant...I do cost analysis for a living.

I don't buy Lever and I doubt that is for sale in Zimbabwe either.
I can't speak to your costs but my soap costs me around $175 per 20 lb batch including essential oils and everything, which comes out to be about $2.54 per 4.5oz bar according to SM3, whereas last time I saw Dr Bronners for sale it was $5.75/bar.
Furthermore, my bar soap is far superior to Dr Bronner's for simple reason Dr B doesn't put beeswax, aloe vera juice, or cocoa butter into his bar soaps, I don't put tocopherol in my soaps, & factory-made soap can never compete with handmade artisan processes.
Dr B doesn't have his factory set up well enough to make swirls or do beeswax.
So how is it that $5.75 is cheaper than $2.50?
I don't have overhead bro. I make two batches of soap per year real quick from one gallon of aloe vera juice in my fridge before it spoils then put my equipment back in totes in my garage.

Rasta13, don't let anybody tell you that you can't make soap cheaper in your house or backyard than you can buy it at the store!!!
It's not true.
No offense Gecko. I like your posts.
Rasta, why the 13 in your name? Isn't that an unlucky number? I thought it was a bummer when Mad magazine shut down a few years ago. There's no satire like Mad mag around anymore.

 

[TheGecko]

I don't buy Lever and I doubt that is for sale in Zimbabwe either.
I can't speak to your costs but my soap costs me around $175 per 20 lb batch including essential oils and everything, which comes out to be about $2.54 per 4.5oz bar according to SM3, whereas last time I saw Dr Bronners for sale it was $5.75/bar.
Furthermore, my bar soap is far superior to Dr Bronner's for simple reason Dr B doesn't put beeswax, aloe vera juice, or cocoa butter into his bar soaps, I don't put tocopherol in my soaps, & factory-made soap can never compete with handmade artisan processes.
Dr B doesn't have his factory set up well enough to make swirls or do beeswax.
So how is it that $5.75 is cheaper than $2.50?
I don't have overhead bro. I make two batches of soap per year real quick from one gallon of aloe vera juice in my fridge before it spoils then put my equipment back in totes in my garage.

Rasta13, don't let anybody tell you that you can't make soap cheaper in your house or backyard than you can buy it at the store!!!
It's not true.
No offense Gecko. I like your posts.
Rasta, why the 13 in your name? Isn't that an unlucky number? I thought it was a bummer when Mad magazine shut down a few years ago. There's no satire like Mad mag around anymore.

1) Dr Bonner’s is not the only soap on the market. And FYI DB is $4.69/5oz at my local Target; I sell my soap $7.00/4oz

2) You’re comparing apples to onions. Specifically you’re comparing your ingredients costs vs retail price

 

[user 57761]

I make soap cheaper than I can buy it in the store.
That's the only reason I've been soapin' the last ten years. Even if nobody buys it, it's still profitable to me compared to what I would pay buying Dr Bronners at the grocery store.
Commercial soapmakers have overhead n stuff we in our kitchen don't have to worry about.
If this nice man believes that it might turn him off soapin'.

LOL, too kind, thanks for the support! Sometimes the realists help ground things, which is good. But just because something is done a certain way does not mean it cannot be refined, fine-tuned, changed, and made better. When there is a problem (this one is poverty) there needs to be a solution. If I can work that out making soap and teaching people that will be awesome. If not, I will find another solution. Trying and failing is not failing so long as you learn something. So I appreciate you all very much and hope you all have an excellent weekend!

That’s all great info! I render my tallow as well - man, it’s a lot of work! But the results are so nice.

So, the challenge of helping you with a recipe (your original question) from my perspective is that leaving soap in the loaf/log shape until you need another bar means it gets more and more difficult to cut as time passes. To compound that issue, you are starting with tallow, which makes a very hard soap that can even be brittle when used in high percentages, and becomes more so as time passes.

My Ugandan friends added a few ingredients that were unfamiliar to me; I don’t know if these served to keep the soap a little softer for easier cutting.

When bars are cut there in Zim, are they usually soft, or brittle? Do some smaller pieces break off, esp as the soap ages? How do they cut it?

I appreciate all you can share as this will help me with my Ugandan friends, too!

The soaps created locally are primarily made from sunflower oil and tallow. People are not researching and testing formulation enough though and the result is very soft, uncured bars that are very cheap but only stay on the market for a short time as customers like the price but not the product. Most people are pouring the batter onto a PVC sheet on the floor and then cut in bulk on the floor.

I don't buy Lever and I doubt that is for sale in Zimbabwe either.
I can't speak to your costs but my soap costs me around $175 per 20 lb batch including essential oils and everything, which comes out to be about $2.54 per 4.5oz bar according to SM3, whereas last time I saw Dr Bronners for sale it was $5.75/bar.
Furthermore, my bar soap is far superior to Dr Bronner's for simple reason Dr B doesn't put beeswax, aloe vera juice, or cocoa butter into his bar soaps, I don't put tocopherol in my soaps, & factory-made soap can never compete with handmade artisan processes.
Dr B doesn't have his factory set up well enough to make swirls or do beeswax.
So how is it that $5.75 is cheaper than $2.50?
I don't have overhead bro. I make two batches of soap per year real quick from one gallon of aloe vera juice in my fridge before it spoils then put my equipment back in totes in my garage.

Rasta13, don't let anybody tell you that you can't make soap cheaper in your house or backyard than you can buy it at the store!!!
It's not true.
No offense Gecko. I like your posts.
Rasta, why the 13 in your name? Isn't that an unlucky number? I thought it was a bummer when Mad magazine shut down a few years ago. There's no satire like Mad mag around anymore.

LOL Johnnyusa, the 13 was just a coincidence! Google gave it to me as I assume at the time of registering a user name 12 others had RASTAS as a handle! I also believe you make your own luck, so your post bodes well with what I am trying to do. I will try to teach this donkey to gallop if it is too stubborn I will make another plan. This effort is still young, so I will keep everyone posted as we move forward, whether we win or lose.

BTW Mad Mag was awesome!

1) Dr Bonner’s is not the only soap on the market. And FYI DB is $4.69/5oz at my local Target; I sell my soap $7.00/4oz

2) You’re comparing apples to onions. Specifically you’re comparing your ingredients costs vs retail price

@TheGecko, I enjoy your realistic approach. It is always a great idea to have someone that will pull the wagon straight. It is easy to be theoretical and a dreamer, practical people help the dream stay grounded. Basically in ZW we have an excess of sunflower, soya, and peanut oils. These are all too soft. PKO is available in North, East, and West Africa, but the logistics of delivery to Zimbabwe are tough and expensive. So the two options I am faced with are using beef tallow (the downside to this is it is a hard process to render and so the cost incurred is passed on as a cost of goods sold). The other softer oils may be possible (I know you are only supposed to be at around 20% I think), but with some formulation testing to see what will harden up the bar and lessen the curing time I hope to find something that works. I have a bunch of ingredients that I will be using in different recipes this weekend to understand what is possible and from there, I will hopefully have something a bit more concrete to report back on sometime next week.

@RASTAS13. Welcome, as this is the Introduction forum, would you start another thread regarding all this information you wish to discuss and leave this thread for the Introduction. Thank you.

Hi Relle, should I start another thread? (Sorry, I didn't expect such a big response. Was just saying hi.

 

[AliOop]

The soaps created locally are primarily made from sunflower oil and tallow. People are not researching and testing formulation enough though and the result is very soft, uncured bars that are very cheap but only stay on the market for a short time as customers like the price but not the product. Most people are pouring the batter onto a PVC sheet on the floor and then cut in bulk on the floor.

That’s great to hear that you do have some soft oils available. Out of the ones you listed, sunflower would be my choice if it’s cost-effective.

If you were to start with 80% tallow, 20% sunflower, and dual lye at 90:10 NaOH to KOH, I believe you’d get a firm bar that lathers fairly easily and may or may not remain soft enough to cut over time. If not, you can keep upping the KOH till you find the sweet spot.

If KOH isn’t available for you, then dissolving some form of sugar into the water (before adding the NaOH) would assist with lathering. But the bar may still become too hard to cut as it cures, in which case you could up the soft oil a bit.

Gosh, now I almost want to try it myself and see how it goes! Maybe a small batch. I hope you will keep us updated!

 

[TheGecko]

@TheGecko, I enjoy your realistic approach. It is always a great idea to have someone that will pull the wagon straight. It is easy to be theoretical and a dreamer, practical people help the dream stay grounded. Basically in ZW we have an excess of sunflower, soya, and peanut oils. These are all too soft. PKO is available in North, East, and West Africa, but the logistics of delivery to Zimbabwe are tough and expensive. So the two options I am faced with are using beef tallow (the downside to this is it is a hard process to render and so the cost incurred is passed on as a cost of goods sold). The other softer oils may be possible (I know you are only supposed to be at around 20% I think), but with some formulation testing to see what will harden up the bar and lessen the curing time I hope to find something that works. I have a bunch of ingredients that I will be using in different recipes this weekend to understand what is possible and from there, I will hopefully have something a bit more concrete to report back on sometime next week.

Two of the oldest soaps are made with soft oils...Castile (Olive Oil) and Aleppo (Olive and Laurel Berry Oils)...you just need to let the soap cure for a long time. @Zany_in_CO has a recipe for Castile Soap that lessens the cure time that could perhaps be adapted.

The 'rules' regarding how much you are supposed to use or not use are not written in stone...they are simply guidelines. As an example...Coconut Oil; recommendation is no more than 33%, 15% if you have dry/sensitive skin, but lots of people make a 100% Coconut Oil Soap. The Internet is filled with lots of people experimenting with single oil/butter soaps.

Rendering fat really isn't all that hard; yes it is time consuming because it can take six to eight hours depending on how much fat you are rendering, but it's not labor intensive. You put the fat is a pot over low heat or a low over and maybe give it a stir once or twice and then you strain it. While it's rendering, you can be doing other things...like making soap with the tallow or lard you rendered the day before. I multi-task while I make soap whether I am making it from scratch or from a Master Batch. I start out my weighing out my oils and I pop it in the microwave, while I'm waiting for the oils to melt, I'm weighing out my lye solution, adding sodium lactate, weighing out my FO and adding Kaolin Clay, dispersing my colorants...I don't just stand there waiting for my oils to melt (or cool down if I get them too warm).

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Two of the oldest soaps are made with soft oils...Castile (Olive Oil) and Aleppo (Olive and Laurel Berry Oils)...you just need to let the soap cure for a long time. @Zany_in_CO has a recipe for Castile Soap that lessens the cure time that could perhaps be adapted.

I also use ZNSC (Zany's No Slime Castile) to make Aleppo Soap -- 80% Olive + 20% Laurel Berry Oil.

 

[AliOop]

Two of the oldest soaps are made with soft oils...Castile (Olive Oil) and Aleppo (Olive and Laurel Berry Oils)...you just need to let the soap cure for a long time. @Zany_in_CO has a recipe for Castile Soap that lessens the cure time that could perhaps be adapted.

The 'rules' regarding how much you are supposed to use or not use are not written in stone...they are simply guidelines. As an example...Coconut Oil; recommendation is no more than 33%, 15% if you have dry/sensitive skin, but lots of people make a 100% Coconut Oil Soap. The Internet is filled with lots of people experimenting with single oil/butter soaps.

Rendering fat really isn't all that hard; yes it is time consuming because it can take six to eight hours depending on how much fat you are rendering, but it's not labor intensive. You put the fat is a pot over low heat or a low over and maybe give it a stir once or twice and then you strain it. While it's rendering, you can be doing other things...like making soap with the tallow or lard you rendered the day before. I multi-task while I make soap whether I am making it from scratch or from a Master Batch. I start out my weighing out my oils and I pop it in the microwave, while I'm waiting for the oils to melt, I'm weighing out my lye solution, adding sodium lactate, weighing out my FO and adding Kaolin Clay, dispersing my colorants...I don't just stand there waiting for my oils to melt (or cool down if I get them too warm).

The issue for @RASTAS13 is that in Zimbabwe, they sell the soap in whole loves, and hack off a piece when they need one. That means the loaf has to say soft enough over a long period of time to be hackable, lol... and I think that eliminates a high OO soap, as those become rock hard during the cure.

EDIT: But that's a moot point anyway, since the OP doesn't have access to olive oil. His post is very clear that the oils he has to work with are limited to tallow, sunflower oil, peanut oil, and soybean oil.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I think that eliminates a high OO soap

NOT! LOL Especially ZNSC!

I made 2 loaves of ZNSC scented with Tea Tree EO in March 2022 -- in anticipation of a special order from a customer who had been buying it for the 2 previous years. When she didn't reorder that year, the loaves sliced up easily to give away to friends and family at Christmas time.

I'm not braggin'; just sayin'... it's a good thing!

 

[Relle]

Hi Relle, should I start another thread? (Sorry, I didn't expect such a big response. Was just saying hi.

It's up to you, Prysm said to leave it

 

[TheGecko]

The issue for @RASTAS13 is that in Zimbabwe, they sell the soap in whole loves, and hack off a piece when they need one. That means the loaf has to say soft enough over a long period of time to be hackable, lol... and I think that eliminates a high OO soap, as those become rock hard during the cure.

EDIT: But that's a moot point anyway, since the OP doesn't have access to olive oil. His post is very clear that the oils he has to work with are limited to tallow, sunflower oil, peanut oil, and soybean oil.

I know what they have, I was addressing the concern about using all 'soft' oils and I used Castile and Aleppo Soaps as examples of soaps made with just 'soft oils'.

And considering that they use the soap as an all-purpose soap...bathing, dishes, laundry, cleaning...I'm sure the loaf would get used up before it gets 'rock hard'.

 

[user 57761]

Two of the oldest soaps are made with soft oils...Castile (Olive Oil) and Aleppo (Olive and Laurel Berry Oils)...you just need to let the soap cure for a long time. @Zany_in_CO has a recipe for Castile Soap that lessens the cure time that could perhaps be adapted.

The 'rules' regarding how much you are supposed to use or not use are not written in stone...they are simply guidelines. As an example...Coconut Oil; recommendation is no more than 33%, 15% if you have dry/sensitive skin, but lots of people make a 100% Coconut Oil Soap. The Internet is filled with lots of people experimenting with single oil/butter soaps.

Rendering fat really isn't all that hard; yes it is time consuming because it can take six to eight hours depending on how much fat you are rendering, but it's not labor intensive. You put the fat is a pot over low heat or a low over and maybe give it a stir once or twice and then you strain it. While it's rendering, you can be doing other things...like making soap with the tallow or lard you rendered the day before. I multi-task while I make soap whether I am making it from scratch or from a Master Batch. I start out my weighing out my oils and I pop it in the microwave, while I'm waiting for the oils to melt, I'm weighing out my lye solution, adding sodium lactate, weighing out my FO and adding Kaolin Clay, dispersing my colorants...I don't just stand there waiting for my oils to melt (or cool down if I get them too warm).

@TheGecko thank you very much for your input. I will look at the Castile soap recipe with the lower cure time, which might be well applied to sunflower or possibly soya oil. (Will keep you posted).

For the beef tallow, I recently rendered 10kgs of suet fats to produce a nearly odorless tallow using a wet rendering process with salt. It worked well however the amount of fat required to produce a decent volume of soap is prohibitive. (Suet fat is the lowest cost ingredient for tallow but only comprises roughly about 1.5% of animal weight, so the issue would be procuring the suet in sustainable quantities.)

I am trying to formulate different options with bees wax, clays, and salt (in combination with the softer oils mentioned to see if there is a way to get a hard bar with just the soft oils. I will hopefully win and if I do will update.

It's up to you, Prysm said to leave it

Thank you, I will leave it to run then. If any issues, if admins can just confirm so I can sort.

That’s great to hear that you do have some soft oils available. Out of the ones you listed, sunflower would be my choice if it’s cost-effective.

If you were to start with 80% tallow, 20% sunflower, and dual lye at 90:10 NaOH to KOH, I believe you’d get a firm bar that lathers fairly easily and may or may not remain soft enough to cut over time. If not, you can keep upping the KOH till you find the sweet spot.

If KOH isn’t available for you, then dissolving some form of sugar into the water (before adding the NaOH) would assist with lathering. But the bar may still become too hard to cut as it cures, in which case you could up the soft oil a bit.

Gosh, now I almost want to try it myself and see how it goes! Maybe a small batch. I hope you will keep us updated!

All your advice is well appreciated! Too kind. Thanks very much. KOH is available locally I had not researched its properties yet as I was under the impression it is for liquid production. I will go out and get some today for trying a different batch this evening. Thanks for all your time and help on this.

The issue for @RASTAS13 is that in Zimbabwe, they sell the soap in whole loves, and hack off a piece when they need one. That means the loaf has to say soft enough over a long period of time to be hackable, lol... and I think that eliminates a high OO soap, as those become rock hard during the cure.

EDIT: But that's a moot point anyway, since the OP doesn't have access to olive oil. His post is very clear that the oils he has to work with are limited to tallow, sunflower oil, peanut oil, and soybean oil.

Correct and unfortunately the tallow will not be available in large enough quantities for mass production. It will also increase the logistical efforts required to deliver to the rural folks, (who would also more than likely be interested in eating the meat than using it for something else). I need to figure out how to make a hard bar from soft oils.

The consumer does cut pieces from a 1 kg bar (average weight used locally for the mass market) to use for different things, however, at a competitive price point we could include smaller bars in one package to avoid the worry about not being able to cut at a later stage. So a rock hard bar is not a problem, more of a usage education and with marketing could be positioned as a pro.

 

[AliOop]

@RASTAS13 if you only have those three soft oils to work with, you almost certainly won't need to use KOH to make the bar any softer. Any one of those three oils, or combinations thereof, will make pretty soft soap.The KOH would only be needed (IMO) if you were going to use tallow, which makes a very hard soap. If you won't be using tallow, don't spend any money or time on KOH.

The issue with using only those soft oils is going to be preventing rancidity. You will need some sort of chelator to help with that. I recommend reading this article about that.

 

[user 57761]

@RASTAS13 if you only have those three soft oils to work with, you almost certainly won't need to use KOH to make the bar any softer. Any one of those three oils, or combinations thereof, will make pretty soft soap.The KOH would only be needed (IMO) if you were going to use tallow, which makes a very hard soap. If you won't be using tallow, don't spend any money or time on KOH.

The issue with using only those soft oils is going to be preventing rancidity. You will need some sort of chelator to help with that. I recommend reading this article about that.

Hey AliOop! Thanks for the advice as always! I got you on the KOH, I will save that for when we start teaching liquids!

For the rancidity, I have done a fair amount of research and am led to understand that sodium citrate at a rate of 1 to 2% of oils will prevent rancidity and extend shelf life. The only thing left is to confirm what will harden the bars up. I have been researching calcium carbonate, salt, beeswax, and clays for hardening and have a few batches setting up in molds at the moment.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I have done a fair amount of research and am led to understand that sodium citrate at a rate of 1 to 2% of oils will prevent rancidity and extend shelf life.

You might want to access the info in SMF's science guru, @DeeAnna's Soapy Stuff on Sodiium Citrate. It's an excellent reference on all things soapy. Be sure to bookmark it if you haven't done so already.

 

[AliOop]

Hey AliOop! Thanks for the advice as always! I got you on the KOH, I will save that for when we start teaching liquids!

For the rancidity, I have done a fair amount of research and am led to understand that sodium citrate at a rate of 1 to 2% of oils will prevent rancidity and extend shelf life. The only thing left is to confirm what will harden the bars up. I have been researching calcium carbonate, salt, beeswax, and clays for hardening and have a few batches setting up in molds at the moment.

I love how you are researching this and coming up with great info! I do use SC at 1% of oils, as well - works great for me! Please let us know how it goes with the test batches.

 

[user 57761]

You might want to access the info in SMF's science guru, @DeeAnna's Soapy Stuff on Sodiium Citrate. It's an excellent reference on all things soapy. Be sure to bookmark it if you haven't done so already.

Too kind. Thank you for the resource! This will certainly help a lot.

I love how you are researching this and coming up with great info! I do use SC at 1% of oils, as well - works great for me! Please let us know how it goes with the test batches. Thanks AliOop. I will update as I progress, win or fail!

 

[melinda48]

Hi all. Thanks for having me here! I am based in Zimbabwe. Things are tough here, so I thought I would learn how to make low-cost soaps using local materials with the aim of creating a soap program that I can roll out to rural villages to help them achieve economic sustainability. I look forward to learning from everyone, thanks again and I hope you all have a fantastic 2023.

Welcome aboard! You are certainly in the right place to learn!! I learn something new every time I log on.