Inconsistent shave soap lather

[Mosstache Made]

So I've been making soap for a little while now but am by no means an expert. I've come up with a pretty good recipe that produces a good shave. After every batch of soap I make i take the scraps and try the soap to test the lather. I've noticed that when the soap is very fresh, just hard enough to unmold fresh. It lathers so well. And holds a lather. It doesn't evaporate or anything. Then later on it seems like the lather wants to evaporate. I HP all my soap so while its not cured yet it is usable. Why does my soap seem to lather better at first then get worse at holding a lather? Could it be the high moisture content reacting with the glycerin?

 

[DeeAnna]

There's no way you can get good answers to your questions without telling us what's in the soap. We need all ingredients all in weights -- don't mix percentages with weights, please.

 

[Mosstache Made]

Here are the amounts of everything i use. I'm not sure if the % is based off the total weight of the ingredients or the total weight of the oils. I'm still trying to figure a lot of this out.

Shea Butter-10oz
Coconut oil-10oz
Glycerin-4oz
Jojoba oil-4oz
Castor oil-2oz
Distilled water-13oz
Sodium hydroxide-3oz
Potassium hydroxide-1oz

As I've said, this recipe produces a great shave that I really like, but I'd like the lather to last a little longer on my skin. Is there anything I should add, or reduce, to get that outcome?

 

[AliOop]

I'm not a shave soap expert by any means, but the first recommendations that I'd make are:

1. Change the ratio of NaOH to KOH to be 50:50 or 40:60.
2. Add some stearic acid or tallow. You will need to run it back through a soap calc of course to get the new lye amounts.

We have some good shave soap threads here that might help you understand those recommendations.

 

[DeeAnna]

The general rule of thumb that I use for any shave soap recipe is to have the combined stearic acid + palmitic acid content about 50% of the total fatty acids. That will give a longer lasting lather as well as a more cushiony, protective lather.

The jojoba is a significant % of the total fat in your formulation. Most soap makers don't use jojoba in soap, including shave soap, partly due to its cost and partly due to questions about whether it adds much benefit when used in soap. My opinion is it will do more good if used in a leave-on product instead.

 

[Mosstache Made]

Oh ok, I didn't know that about jojoba oil. I make beard balms and mustachewax so the jojoba oil was just an oil I had so I used it. But would you recommend substituting the jojoba oil with sunflower seed oil? I've read sunflower oil is used to sustain lather in shave soap.

So based off of the advice so far and some more research, I think I will use a 50:50 ratio for the lye, and get rid of the jojoba oil as it is a pretty pricey oil. I already have sunflower seed oil so I will add that instead of jojoba. I'm also going to drop my Castor oil so its closer to 3% because I've read Castor oil used over 5% can mess up lather and make a bar too soft.

 

[DeeAnna]

Sunflower oil is high in oleic acid. It's an alternative to olive oil, not an alternative for jojoba. Oleic lather is creamy with small bubbles, but it's not cushiony. IMO you need to increase the stearic and palmitic content, not the oleic acid content.

 

[user 49910]

Here are the amounts of everything i use. I'm not sure if the % is based off the total weight of the ingredients or the total weight of the oils. I'm still trying to figure a lot of this out.

Shea Butter-10oz
Coconut oil-10oz
Glycerin-4oz
Jojoba oil-4oz
Castor oil-2oz
Distilled water-13oz
Sodium hydroxide-3oz
Potassium hydroxide-1oz

As I've said, this recipe produces a great shave that I really like, but I'd like the lather to last a little longer on my skin. Is there anything I should add, or reduce, to get that outcome?

Welcome to the forum!
So you want your lather to last a while longer and not evaporate. Actually the lather doesn't evaporate, it collapses. No structure to support all the tiny bubbles of lather foam.

Let's dissect this somewhat...

1. For a good shave soap you want the fatty acids percentages to be at LEAST 50% Stearic Acid as displayed on the calculator. That is using a combination of fats such as stearic acid, tallow, cocoa butter, etc.. Your recipe as listed shows a 17% percent stearic acid percentage of all oils.
2. Way too much shea butter. It's a great oil but cut it back to about no more than 10% of the oil weight in total.
3. Too much glycerin. Should be added post-cook too. Use no more than 10% of total oils weight, which in your case is 2.6 oz. not 4 oz. Too much glycerin in a soap will reduce it's lathering ability.
4. I don't know what your superfat percentage is, but for good shave soap it should be in the 7-8% range.
5. Basically shave soap is a type of "cream soap". I would recommend a minimum of 60% potassium hydroxide. KOH makes it easier to quickly create lots of thick creamy lather.
6. Basically you've made a type of bar soap here, not a shave soap. ALL SHAVE SOAP will have some measure of stearic acid in the formula. Check out all the popular ones being sold online such as CELLA, RAZOROCK, TAYLOR OF OLD BOND STREET, etc. Stearic acid is usually the first or second ingredient listed. It is what really gives the shave soap dense, creamy body. Also the majority of classic men's soaps use tallow. It really improves the shave experience considerably.
Now there are some, shall we say, "unscrupulous" vendors that take melt & pour soap bases and scent them up and re-label as "shave soap" M&P uses a lot of glycerin in it, it has to in order to be melt & pour. But it's lather sustaining ability is nil. Use no more than 10% of glycerin to oil weight and add it in the post-cook stage.
7. Cut back on the coconut oil too, around 8-9% of total oils used is a good percentage.
8. Your water to lye concentration is around 23% which is good.

Remember that you are making a shave soap, not a cleansing bar of soap. Totally different soap profile compared to regular bar soap.
Use the Soapmaker Friend Calculator to compare on the bar charts how the various oils used affect the end product's properties.

I noticed all of your amounts are basically rounded off amounts to the nearest ounce. Do you have a decent scale that is capable of measuring in grams? Even better if measuring to the 1/10th of a gram.

I don't where those lye amounts came from but they're quite inaccurate when it comes to making a quality shave soap. The calculator shows the the KOH should be 1.34 oz. and the NaOH should be 2.58 oz. However, again I highly recommend you use a minimum of 60% KOH and 40% NaOH. My own formulas I use an 80/20 ratio of KOH to NaOH.

Try using sorbitol to enhance the lathering ability of the soap. Around 3% of oil weight for sorbitol is a good start. It is a naturally occurring sugar alcohol found in many fruits and vegetables. Add it in with the the lye water at the start.

Here is my recommendation for a good start at shave soap:
50% Stearic Acid
20% Beef Tallow
7% Shea Butter
7% Cocoa Butter
8% Coconut Oil
8% Castor Oil
65/35 KOH to NaOH ratio


I hope these suggestions help you. Please take them in the spirit given. Carrie Siebert's book have been my guide through my shave soap formulation process. I don't make hard puck soaps, instead I make a cream shave soap similar to CELLA or RAZOROCK.

You have now crossed the sign post up ahead, into another dimension of sight and sound...

 

[Christa10]

Welcome to the forum!
So you want your lather to last a while longer and not evaporate. Actually the lather doesn't evaporate, it collapses. No structure to support all the tiny bubbles of lather foam.

Let's dissect this somewhat...

1. For a good shave soap you want the fatty acids percentages to be at LEAST 50% Stearic Acid as displayed on the calculator. That is using a combination of fats such as stearic acid, tallow, cocoa butter, etc.. Your recipe as listed shows a 17% percent stearic acid percentage of all oils.
2. Way too much shea butter. It's a great oil but cut it back to about no more than 10% of the oil weight in total.
3. Too much glycerin. Should be added post-cook too. Use no more than 10% of total oils weight, which in your case is 2.6 oz. not 4 oz. Too much glycerin in a soap will reduce it's lathering ability.
4. I don't know what your superfat percentage is, but for good shave soap it should be in the 7-8% range.
5. Basically shave soap is a type of "cream soap". I would recommend a minimum of 60% potassium hydroxide. KOH makes it easier to quickly create lots of thick creamy lather.
6. Basically you've made a type of bar soap here, not a shave soap. ALL SHAVE SOAP will have some measure of stearic acid in the formula. Check out all the popular ones being sold online such as CELLA, RAZOROCK, TAYLOR OF OLD BOND STREET, etc. Stearic acid is usually the first or second ingredient listed. It is what really gives the shave soap dense, creamy body. Also the majority of classic men's soaps use tallow. It really improves the shave experience considerably.
Now there are some, shall we say, "unscrupulous" vendors that take melt & pour soap bases and scent them up and re-label as "shave soap" M&P uses a lot of glycerin in it, it has to in order to be melt & pour. But it's lather sustaining ability is nil. Use no more than 10% of glycerin to oil weight and add it in the post-cook stage.
7. Cut back on the coconut oil too, around 8-9% of total oils used is a good percentage.
8. Your water to lye concentration is around 23% which is good.

Remember that you are making a shave soap, not a cleansing bar of soap. Totally different soap profile compared to regular bar soap.
Use the Soapmaker Friend Calculator to compare on the bar charts how the various oils used affect the end product's properties.

I noticed all of your amounts are basically rounded off amounts to the nearest ounce. Do you have a decent scale that is capable of measuring in grams? Even better if measuring to the 1/10th of a gram.

I don't where those lye amounts came from but they're quite inaccurate when it comes to making a quality shave soap. The calculator shows the the KOH should be 1.34 oz. and the NaOH should be 2.58 oz. However, again I highly recommend you use a minimum of 60% KOH and 40% NaOH. My own formulas I use an 80/20 ratio of KOH to NaOH.

Try using sorbitol to enhance the lathering ability of the soap. Around 3% of oil weight for sorbitol is a good start. It is a naturally occurring sugar alcohol found in many fruits and vegetables. Add it in with the the lye water at the start.

Here is my recommendation for a good start at shave soap:
50% Stearic Acid
20% Beef Tallow
7% Shea Butter
7% Cocoa Butter
8% Coconut Oil
8% Castor Oil
65/35 KOH to NaOH ratio


I hope these suggestions help you. Please take them in the spirit given. Carrie Siebert's book have been my guide through my shave soap formulation process. I don't make hard puck soaps, instead I make a cream shave soap similar to CELLA or RAZOROCK.

You have now crossed the sign post up ahead, into another dimension of sight and sound...

Hi Professor Bernardo, Your input seems quite solid and I appreciate all the detail you provided to Mosstache Made. I have a few questions: Does the higher KOH to NAOH ratio create the cream shave soap, or is it the oils you use? I notice you are using 8% castor oil, which I'm wondering about. What does the higher percentage do? Also, I'm trying to avoid using animal products, can you recommend a substitute for the beef tallow? Thanks in advance.

 

[user 49910]

Does the higher KOH to NAOH ratio create the cream shave soap, or is it the oils you use? I notice you are using 8% castor oil, which I'm wondering about. What does the higher percentage do? Also, I'm trying to avoid using animal products, can you recommend a substitute for the beef tallow?

Hello Crista 10!

Yes, the higher KOH to NaOH ratio makes a softer, more paste-like soap. The oils really don't have much to do with the pastiness of the soap. Stearic Acid makes a quite hard soap if used with just NaOH, but with KOH it becomes softer.

Castor oil contributes to a bubbly creamy lather, plus it has great conditioning properties to it. Just don't overdue it. 7-8% works best, IMHO.

I use beef tallow because it's traditional in shave soap and it is a by-product of beef processing. So why not use it? Your reasons are personal so I won't pontificate, each to their own. Although, trying to replace it with a vegetable-based oil on a 1 to 1 properties basis is tough.

Palm Oil would probably be your best best. Plus increasing the cocoa butter to around 10%

Properties of Beef Tallow:
Sap KOH0.2 Sap NaOH0.143 Iodine45 INS147
Lauric2
Myristic6
Palmitic28
Stearic22
Ricinoleic0
Oleic36
Linoleic3
Linolenic1
Bubbly8
Cleansing8
Condition40
Hardness58
Longevity50
Creamy Lather50

Properties of Palm Oil
Sap KOH0.199 Sap NaOH0.142 Iodine53 INS145
Lauric0
Myristic1
Palmitic44
Stearic5
Ricinoleic0
Oleic39
Linoleic10
Linolenic0
Bubbly1
Cleansing1
Condition49
Hardness50
Longevity49
Creamy Lather49

 

[DeeAnna]

@Christa10 -- you might also look into soy wax (hydrogenated soybean oil) as an alternative for tallow.

 

[Christa10]

Hello Crista 10!

Yes, the higher KOH to NaOH ratio makes a softer, more paste-like soap. The oils really don't have much to do with the pastiness of the soap. Stearic Acid makes a quite hard soap if used with just NaOH, but with KOH it becomes softer.

Castor oil contributes to a bubbly creamy lather, plus it has great conditioning properties to it. Just don't overdue it. 7-8% works best, IMHO.

I use beef tallow because it's traditional in shave soap and it is a by-product of beef processing. So why not use it? Your reasons are personal so I won't pontificate, each to their own. Although, trying to replace it with a vegetable-based oil on a 1 to 1 properties basis is tough.

Palm Oil would probably be your best best. Plus increasing the cocoa butter to around 10%

Properties of Beef Tallow:
Sap KOH0.2 Sap NaOH0.143 Iodine45 INS147
Lauric2
Myristic6
Palmitic28
Stearic22
Ricinoleic0
Oleic36
Linoleic3
Linolenic1
Bubbly8
Cleansing8
Condition40
Hardness58
Longevity50
Creamy Lather50

Properties of Palm Oil
Sap KOH0.199 Sap NaOH0.142 Iodine53 INS145
Lauric0
Myristic1
Palmitic44
Stearic5
Ricinoleic0
Oleic39
Linoleic10
Linolenic0
Bubbly1
Cleansing1
Condition49
Hardness50
Longevity49
Creamy Lather49

Thanks so much for the reply. My shave soap stearic acid comes in at 50% but the palmitic acid isn't very high. I live in California and we have a lot of people who object to animal fats as well as palm oil, and I go with what my customers want, so I try to work around that. The people who tend to frequent the open air markets definitely want organic and animal-free. I'll raise the coconut oil content a bit though and maybe use baobab oil, which has a higher palmitic acid %.

@Christa10 -- you might also look into soy wax (hydrogenated soybean oil) as an alternative for tallow.

Thanks DeeAnna. I will look into that for sure. Love all the input on this thread.

 

[Becky1024]

Another ingredient you may want to look at is Kokum butter to increase your stearic / palmetic numbers.

I’m glad you already do HP. HP, in my opinion, is easier to do than CP for shave soap since the high stearic ingredients have a high melting point. When I make shave soap, I put my oils & butters in a crockpot, heat until everything is melted, and add my dual lye solution when everything is about 150 - 160F. Then I mainly hand stir, and only use the stick blender for very short bursts.

 

[Mosstache Made]

I ordered some tallow to increase my stearic numbers as well. I know tallow does make a great soap so I'm going to use that as my base oil.

Another ingredient you may want to look at is Kokum butter to increase your stearic / palmetic numbers.

I’m glad you already do HP. HP, in my opinion, is easier to do than CP for shave soap since the high stearic ingredients have a high melting point. When I make shave soap, I put my oils & butters in a crockpot, heat until everything is melted, and add my dual lye solution when everything is about 150 - 160F. Then I mainly hand stir, and only use the stick blender for very short bursts.

Along with the tallow, I ordered some kokum butter as well. I think my main problem is definitely the stearic acid % I thought coconut oil and shea butter were higher in stearic acid then they are. Plus I'm very new to this and still figuring out how to calculate recipes.

 

[Mosstache Made]

Another ingredient you may want to look at is Kokum butter to increase your stearic / palmetic numbers.

I’m glad you already do HP. HP, in my opinion, is easier to do than CP for shave soap since the high stearic ingredients have a high melting point. When I make shave soap, I put my oils & butters in a crockpot, heat until everything is melted, and add my dual lye solution when everything is about 150 - 160F. Then I mainly hand stir, and only use the stick blender for very short bursts.

Another ingredient you may want to look at is Kokum butter to increase your stearic / palmetic numbers.

I’m glad you already do HP. HP, in my opinion, is easier to do than CP for shave soap since the high stearic ingredients have a high melting point. When I make shave soap, I put my oils & butters in a crockpot, heat until everything is melted, and add my dual lye solution when everything is about 150 - 160F. Then I mainly hand stir, and only use the stick blender for very short bursts.

Kokum butter is a brand new oil to me. Is there a preffered percentage range I need to stay in? Like with shea butter I've read too much shea can mess up the lather. Is it the same with kokum butter?

 

[Becky1024]

Kokum butter is a brand new oil to me. Is there a preffered percentage range I need to stay in? Like with shea butter I've read too much shea can mess up the lather. Is it the same with kokum butter?

I am unaware if there is a preferred range for kokum butter. I use it at a high percentage in my shave soap. It's good in shave soap because the stearic + palmitic is 60, plus is a good emollient.