Inconsistent coloring in HP soap

[Mosstache Made]

I'm pretty new to making soap but I've worked up a recipe for a shave soap that I really like. Everything about it is great, except the coloring. The first couple batches turned a dark brown (which surprisingly I like) because the scent is tobacco and amber and the brown fits that scent in my opinion. My problem isn't with the brown. Its that a couple other batches I've made with the EXACT same recipe arent turning the cool brown color. Instead they're staying kind of yellow and getting brown splotchy spots. I've used the same measurements, with the same ingredients, cooking at the same setting in the crock pot and let it cool to the same temp (140-150) before adding my fragrance. I know vanillin can turn soap brown. But why isnt my soap consistantly turning the same color? In the attached image, the puck on the left was made the day before the puck on the right. And the puck on the right is darkening down like I want then to.

Also, the oils I use are..

Shea butter
Coconut oil
Jojoba oil
Glycerin
Castor oil

Again, I'm not worried about the recipe itself because I'm very happy with the final product. It's the color its turning or not turning that's bothering me as I'm intending on selling and the brown spots look horrible.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

I can imagine that you are unhappy with them. It's weird and frustrating when things refuse to be reproducible. Your oil blend sounds actually quite trouble-free, without stearic acid etc. to make HP more complicated than it already is.
I guess you're adding the FO after the HP cook has finished? Have you made a clarity test before that, to ensure that the reaction really was at the same stage (finished)? Different sources/batches of oils can be variable in how fast they react; cooking HP by the clock is always risky.

Not that I knew how/if at all I could help you out here, just a few ideas that came to my mind. And: Calling in the shave soap experts: @Professor Bernardo @Johnez ...

 

[Mosstache Made]

I can imagine that you are unhappy with them. It's weird and frustrating when things refuse to be reproducible. Your oil blend sounds actually quite trouble-free, without stearic acid etc. to make HP more complicated than it already is.
I guess you're adding the FO after the HP cook has finished? Have you made a clarity test before that, to ensure that the reaction really was at the same stage (finished)? Different sources/batches of oils can be variable in how fast they react; cooking HP by the clock is always risky.

Not that I knew how/if at all I could help you out here, just a few ideas that came to my mind. And: Calling in the shave soap experts: @Professor Bernardo @Johnez ...

Thank you for the reply! Yes I add the FO after the cook. When its finished cooking and in the mashed potato stage its typically around 180-190°F and I stir on and off letting it cool to 140-150 before adding FO. I do not add a super fat after the cook or any additional stearic acid acid and only use sodium hydroxide. No potassium hydroxide. So a very basic recipe. All batches get to that mashed potato stage and I check the "zap" and they've all been cooked.

The very first batch I made, Had much less water but was very hard to get into the mold. But that batch turned brown very quick. Could it possibly be theres just more water in the batches that arent turning brown as fast? Even though I've been using the same water amount for recent batches. Maybe a couple batches didnt boil off as much water so the moisture is keeping them from turning brown at the same speed??

 

[ResolvableOwl]

I check the "zap"

Sorry, yes, I meant the zap test, not the clarity test. That one has its own merits, but not to determine when the cook (chemical reaction) is over.

Could it possibly be theres just more water in the batches that arent turning brown as fast?

Yes. Water loss in HP is a real troublemaker, especially with small batches (depends on weather, if you have your window open or shut...). Following textbook chemistry, water content "should" do nothing, but soapmaking is consistently more than that. tl;dr: I can't make sense why water content should have an influence, but I equally have no reason to believe it has none.

 

[Mosstache Made]

Sorry, yes, I meant the zap test, not the clarity test. That one has its own merits, but not to determine when the cook (chemical reaction) is over.


Yes. Water loss in HP is a real troublemaker, especially with small batches (depends on weather, if you have your window open or shut...). Following textbook chemistry, water content "should" do nothing, but soapmaking is consistently more than that. tl;dr: I can't make sense why water content should have an influence, but I equally have no reason to believe it has none.

I might cut my water down and cook it the same just to see what will happen. Even though the mixture looked the same maybe there was just enough water that didnt evaporate to make it change color at a different rate.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

You can do this, yes. Maybe you get the hang of it. I wish for the best, but can't give any guarantee.

Another idea might be to just drown the inconsistent discolouration, by enforcing the brown. Dissolving a piece of chocolate after cook? Cocoa as a colourant is temperamental all by itself, but I'd imagine it'd be worth it. (And if it's just for label appeal!)

 

[Mosstache Made]

That does sound like a great idea. It wouldn't take much either. Would the small amount of cocoa change the lather or anything about the soap that you know of?

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Yes, cocoa (high dosage) makes the suds a bit tan. Other than that, sugar is good for bubbliness, and better not talk about the smell
In my experience, adding chocolate early (like in CP soap) alters the colour and scent, not to the better. But when you are adding it, practically, as a superfat, it should be alright! A few % likely don't mess up with lathering ability.

 

[Mosstache Made]

Yes, cocoa (high dosage) makes the suds a bit tan. Other than that, sugar is good for bubbliness, and better not talk about the smell
In my experience, adding chocolate early (like in CP soap) alters the colour and scent, not to the better. But when you are adding it, practically, as a superfat, it should be alright! A few % likely don't mess up with lathering ability.

Thank you very much! I will do a little research on the cocoa but I think that's what I'll do! Thanks again!

 

[user 49910]

Not that I knew how/if at all I could help you out here, just a few ideas that came to my mind. And: Calling in the shave soap experts: @Professor Bernardo @Johnez ...

RO... I am humbled by your recommendations. It's truly appreciated. @Johnez has not been here on the site for at least 2 months or so. I even PM'd him and no response about two weeks ago. I know he changed jobs and such, I just hope that the Covid Grim Reaper spared him a visit. @Johnez and I had a great rapport and did a lot of PMs between us. Plus I sent him a few samples of my shave soap for his feedback.

I do not add a super fat after the cook or any additional stearic acid acid and only use sodium hydroxide. No potassium hydroxide. So a very basic recipe.

Your recipe is fine for a starter, but I highly recommend using a ratio of 40% Sodium Hydroxide and 60% Potassium Hydroxide. KOH also makes a softer soap, not gooey, but a softer hard puck (oxymoron?) which will soften quicker with the addition of water to build up the lather quicker. The addition of the KOH also make the initial soap easier to deal with during the post hot process phase... I know from experience. In addition, all the high-end shave soaps out there are a mostly softer consistency and all have some level of KOH in them. Some are a harder pucks but most have a softer consistency, like homemade fudge. I have done extensive research on this. It is recommended by most advanced soap makers that one does a superfat when making shave soaps; around 6-8% is the recommended range. Remember, shave soap is not to clean the skin but to provide a slick and easy gliding barrier between the razor blade and the skin.
Superfatting after the hot process cooks does several things; it adds skin conditioning qualities to the product which are not changed by saponification, one doesn't need much in the way of conditioning oils to make a great shave soap with great post shave feel. I set the soap calculator for a 5% superfat during the hot process and saponification phases then I add 1.5% Argan Oil and 1.5% Lanolin Oil along with 10% glycerin (by weight of total oils used). I get an end result of an 8% total superfat.

Carrie Seibert recommends that when designing a shave soap formula to be sure to have at least a 45-50 percent stearic fatty acid content from the combination of oils used. This can come from using fats high in stearic fatty acids such as beef tallow 22%, shea butter 40%, cocoa butter 33%, sal butter 44% and so forth. Avoid using expensive soft oils, they will do nothing for adding to a great shave soap. Jojoba oil is a liquid wax ester and only adds a little conditioning plus it's expensive and really doesn't add to the shave experience quality. If you want to make a bombdiggity slap yo' Mama OMG shave soap then avoid the soft oils except for Castor Oil which adds a level of creaminess not found in other oils or fats.

Now there are some "individuals" that take Melt & Pour soap base and then add coloring and scent to it and call it "artisan homemade" or "gourmet" to sell on that famous auction site. Riiiggghhht!
As we say in the Southwestern United States: Don't tinkle down my back and tell me it's raining!
(Had to change the verb so as to not offend the lightly offendable folks here.)

The first couple batches turned a dark brown (which surprisingly I like) because the scent is tobacco and amber and the brown fits that scent in my opinion.

If you want to color your soaps and also improve the lathering/bubbliness of them I suggest using HONEY! It reacts with lye in a most interesting way going from a honey color to a deep amber color. It speeds up saponification quite a bit, which is a good thing when doing hot process (just look out an occasional volcano.) It also acts as a humectant drawing moisture to the skin. All you need is about a tablespoon or less per pound of oils. As most experienced soap makers here on this forum will attest to, using sugar, honey, or sorbitol will really kick up the lathering of the soap. Honey also adds a sweetness of odor in the background of whichever scent you use. As the Owl said, working with cocoa can be a tricky proposition. Plus it doesn't add anything to the end product but color and grit. Try honey and see what you think.

@Mosstache Made
You may make whichever kind of soap you choose to do. That is the freedom of making soaps! I just thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth... actually about two bit... shave and a haircut two bits! LOL~!
Experiment all you want, check out some YouTube videos, get Carrie Seibert's book: How to Make Shaving Soap: Charting Your Course to the Land of Lather

What ever you decide will be the right course for you, naturally. Come here to this forum seek assistance if you desire. I suggest making small batches, around 200 grams or so. When doing hot process you will lose water, cover the cooking pot with plastic wrap and the lid to reduce it. Add a 10% loss factor to the water added in the beginning to offset this, it helps.

Good Luck and BE CAREFUL... you just may fall into the TWILIGHT ZONE of shave soap making!

"You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension: a dimension of saponification, a dimension of smell, a dimension of conditioning. You're moving into a land of both shave slickness and glide, of formulas and ideas. You've just crossed over into… the Twilight Zone."

 

[kittyclark53]

RO... I am humbled by your recommendations. It's truly appreciated. @Johnez has not been here on the site for at least 2 months or so. I even PM'd him and no response about two weeks ago. I know he changed jobs and such, I just hope that the Covid Grim Reaper spared him a visit. @Johnez and I had a great rapport and did a lot of PMs between us. Plus I sent him a few samples of my shave soap for his feedback.


Your recipe is fine for a starter, but I highly recommend using a ratio of 40% Sodium Hydroxide and 60% Potassium Hydroxide. KOH also makes a softer soap, not gooey, but a softer hard puck (oxymoron?) which will soften quicker with the addition of water to build up the lather quicker. The addition of the KOH also make the initial soap easier to deal with during the post hot process phase... I know from experience. In addition, all the high-end shave soaps out there are a mostly softer consistency and all have some level of KOH in them. Some are a harder pucks but most have a softer consistency, like homemade fudge. I have done extensive research on this. It is recommended by most advanced soap makers that one does a superfat when making shave soaps; around 6-8% is the recommended range. Remember, shave soap is not to clean the skin but to provide a slick and easy gliding barrier between the razor blade and the skin.
Superfatting after the hot process cooks does several things; it adds skin conditioning qualities to the product which are not changed by saponification, one doesn't need much in the way of conditioning oils to make a great shave soap with great post shave feel. I set the soap calculator for a 5% superfat during the hot process and saponification phases then I add 1.5% Argan Oil and 1.5% Lanolin Oil along with 10% glycerin (by weight of total oils used). I get an end result of an 8% total superfat.

Carrie Seibert recommends that when designing a shave soap formula to be sure to have at least a 45-50 percent stearic fatty acid content from the combination of oils used. This can come from using fats high in stearic fatty acids such as beef tallow 22%, shea butter 40%, cocoa butter 33%, sal butter 44% and so forth. Avoid using expensive soft oils, they will do nothing for adding to a great shave soap. Jojoba oil is a liquid wax ester and only adds a little conditioning plus it's expensive and really doesn't add to the shave experience quality. If you want to make a bombdiggity slap yo' Mama OMG shave soap then avoid the soft oils except for Castor Oil which adds a level of creaminess not found in other oils or fats.

Now there are some "individuals" that take Melt & Pour soap base and then add coloring and scent to it and call it "artisan homemade" or "gourmet" to sell on that famous auction site. Riiiggghhht!
As we say in the Southwestern United States: Don't tinkle down my back and tell me it's raining!
(Had to change the verb so as to not offend the lightly offendable folks here.)


If you want to color your soaps and also improve the lathering/bubbliness of them I suggest using HONEY! It reacts with lye in a most interesting way going from a honey color to a deep amber color. It speeds up saponification quite a bit, which is a good thing when doing hot process (just look out an occasional volcano.) It also acts as a humectant drawing moisture to the skin. All you need is about a tablespoon or less per pound of oils. As most experienced soap makers here on this forum will attest to, using sugar, honey, or sorbitol will really kick up the lathering of the soap. Honey also adds a sweetness of odor in the background of whichever scent you use. As the Owl said, working with cocoa can be a tricky proposition. Plus it doesn't add anything to the end product but color and grit. Try honey and see what you think.

@Mosstache Made
You may make whichever kind of soap you choose to do. That is the freedom of making soaps! I just thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth... actually about two bit... shave and a haircut two bits! LOL~!
Experiment all you want, check out some YouTube videos, get Carrie Seibert's book: How to Make Shaving Soap: Charting Your Course to the Land of Lather

What ever you decide will be the right course for you, naturally. Come here to this forum seek assistance if you desire. I suggest making small batches, around 200 grams or so. When doing hot process you will lose water, cover the cooking pot with plastic wrap and the lid to reduce it. Add a 10% loss factor to the water added in the beginning to offset this, it helps.

Good Luck and BE CAREFUL... you just may fall into the TWILIGHT ZONE of shave soap making!

"You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension: a dimension of saponification, a dimension of smell, a dimension of conditioning. You're moving into a land of both shave slickness and glide, of formulas and ideas. You've just crossed over into… the Twilight Zone."

This is so interesting. No wonder you were beckoned to answer this question. I really applaud your knowledge. When ever I have a question I will definitely look you up! I have been searching for a good CP shaving soap Recipe. Do you suggest any books that would have one? I have several books and a lot of recipes online. I would appreciate your input on where to get a great Shaving Soap Recipe.

 

[user 49910]

For a good how-to video, go check out this one. It is not a great one for the lack of talking, just a good one showing the modified cold process method which is really IMHO a modified hot process... actually a hybrid process. This is the video that sent me on my shave soap making journey. The recipe she gives below the video makes a very good creamy lathering soap.

Making Dual Lye Shaving Soap | Modified Cold Process Method

Her recipe verbatim:
"**** RECIPE **** My total recipe oil wt was 500g Stearic Acid - 60% Shea Butter - 15% Coconut Oil - 15% Cocoa Butter - 5% Castor Oil - 5% Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH) - 40% Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) - 60% Superfat - 6% To calculate your dual-lye amounts, you can use the soap calculators at Soapee (http://soapee.com/calculator) or Majestic Mountain Sage (https://bit.ly/234ixsG). Both calculate amounts for hybrid lye solutions. Water = 2.6 x (NaOH + KOH) (28% lye solution) Glycerin - 10% of the total oil weight (50g for my 500g recipe)"

Get Carrie Seibert's book: How to Make Shaving Soap: Charting Your Course to the Land of Lather at Amazon for $12.99 (Money well spent).
It's really the best source I have found dedicated solely to making shave soap exclusively. The are about 14 recipes and all have varying amounts of fats. ALL of them use stearic acid to be a major fat in the composition of the soap.

Increasing the water to lye ratio helps too when molding the soap. I intentionally increased my ratios as I learned how the soap was behaving. For a soap for making the round pucks I use a 3.5 / 1 water to lye ratio. That makes it easier to get into the 3" round cylinder I use for the pucks, which after the soap cools I can slide out the cylinder of soap and slice it into the desired weights I need.

 

[Mosstache Made]

You can do this, yes. Maybe you get the hang of it. I wish for the best, but can't give any guarantee.

Another idea might be to just drown the inconsistent discolouration, by enforcing the brown. Dissolving a piece of chocolate after cook? Cocoa as a colourant is temperamental all by itself, but I'd imagine it'd be worth it. (And if it's just for label appeal!)

RO, I added a little cocoa powder and this is my finished product. Not cured of course. But I'm happy with the color. I know people don't like brown soap but I think the brown fits the Tobacco+Amber scent. And the lather is no longer white, but its not brown either. It's more of a cream color and I think its awesome. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Christa10]

I've also used a combination of beer and aloe vera juice for the liquid part and it helps the lather too. Also gives it a nice rich color as well.