I just made Soap Brittle - What Went Wrong?

[GiggleGoat]

Hi,

I have been making soap for a little while now and have always used Goat's Milk for my soaps, but yesterday I tried a recipe with Goat milk and Water (50/50), for some shampoo bars. The trace came pretty fast, maybe 5 or 6 minutes with a stick blender, and after pouring into my 4lb mold the batch hardened in about 4 hours from a light trace. It never reached gel either even though it was well covered.

The recipe is 7.5% superfatted with castor oil and a zap test showed a surprising lack of lye even after only 5 or 6 hours of it sitting in the mold.

I'd love to get someone's take on this. Does water make soap brittle?

 

[dryalligator]

I just posted almost the same question on another site. I soaped with 100% goat milk ice cubes made with powdered milk reconstituted. I use 24 oz olive and 8 oz palm 8.8 oz goat and 4.35 oz lye. My bars when I cut them are crumbly on the edges. I switched to palm kernal and 1 batch came out fine and 1 with different fragrence was crumbly on the edges. What was your recipe?

 

[GiggleGoat]

I wish it was just the edges of mine that were crumbly. My recipe is ...

EVOO at 22% or 12oz
Coconut Oil at 22% or 12oz
Shea Butter at 15% or 8oz
Palm Kernal at 15% or 8oz
Veg Shortening at 15% or 8oz
Castor Oil at 11% or 6oz and 5oz Superfat to 7.8%

Lye at 7.8 oz
Total liquid at 18oz (of which I used 9 Goat Milk and 9 D. Water)

All weighed out on digital scale.

I should have had a killer recipe.

 

[Hazel]

That's odd. Generally, brittleness is a sign of too much lye. But since you said it isn't lye heavy and you have enough water (I've heard too little water used can also result in some brittleness).

I've heard some oils/butters can result in brittleness and I wonder if the combination of CO, SB and PKO might be a factor since they make up 52% of the batch. Also, there are different types of vegetable shortening on the market. I know Walmart's GV shortening has tallow in it. So, if you used one with tallow that could also contribute to brittleness.

Also, did you gel the batch? Overheating may have been a factor. But I'm not an expert soapmaker and I'm just offering suggestions about what may be factors.

 

[IrishLass]

What were your soaping temps, Mike? I ask because of the presence of Shea Butter and PKO in your formula. Butters and PKO always tend to pseudo-trace* on me if my soaping temps are too low (because of the high melting point of the stearic acid content in them). I soap such batches on the hot side (120 to 125 degreesF) in order to keep the stearic acid melted and fluid until saponification can really get moving to the point of true trace.

*Pseudo trace happens when the soaping temps drop too low below the melting points of high stearic fats. Basically, the stearic acid in the fats resolidify and precipitate out of the mix. To the eyes it looks like a true trace, and one that's happening rather quicker than normal at that, but it's not. Such soaps will go on to cure out fine, but they'll usually end up with unattractive 'stearic spots' in them.


IrishLass

 

[sudbubblez]

Powders or clays will make your soap brittle, sometimes It does't even take much of an overage. I made a brittle soap a couple days ago with overuse of kaolin clay and arrowroot powder. Were there any additives like, powders, clays, starches?

 

[GiggleGoat]

Awesome suggestions so far, so thank you. Her's some answers...

1. My soap didn't gel at all. It went from light trace to solid and brittle in about 6 hours.
2. Oil temps were 125 and lye milk/water was 160. I waited till the lye/liquid temp dropped to 145 before I added it to the oils.
3. I checked the lye against the soapcalc again just to make sure I didn't screw up the measurement and couldn't find anything wrong with the weight.
4. Zap test again around 9 pm pst and barely a tingle.
5. I used EO's in the bars. They were Ginger, Lemongrass, and a little bit of Basil. I've used this combo before and it didn't mess with the trace at all. Doesn't mean it wouldn't happen in a second recipe, but I don't think that the culprit.
6. Made the same recipe about 9:30 tonight and it started to gel after about 20 minutes of being in the mold. Now 4 hours later and gel has stopped and it is starting to get hard.
7. There's no powders or anything in the soap. I've never used them. Not because I don't want to, but more so because I am paranoid of screwing up too many batches by adding stuff I haven't tried before.
8. I don't think it's lye heavy. Not that it's not for sure. Usually a tongue test lets me know right away what I may have done wrong, but every clue leads to a lye heavy soap (minus the zap)

After all this time, this is actually my first time using PKO. Is 15% too much? Too little? I can't see any amount of powdery residue on the soap, but it feels REALLY dry. Nothing I have ever felt in 2 day old soap before...or 1 year old soap for that matter.

Should I rebatch (shoot me) or let it site and see what happens?

Thanks again for all the help so far.

 

[sudbubblez]

Take it out of the mold, cut it open. Whats in there? If it was poured at false trace there usually will be crumbly bits, then there will also be pools of oil or liquid lye hidden inside the loaf or pooling under it. If this is the case and theres oil or liquid in there, save it all. During rebatch everything goes in the pot.

 

[GiggleGoat]

I was checking out my notes on the batch and I only stirred the lye/liquid mixture for 10 minutes or so. There didn't look to be any undissolved lye in the liquid so I I let it sit until the temp came down. There was no lye at the bottom of the bowl when I pour it into the oils.

This is probably the whitest batch I have ever made and the colour is consistent throughout the soap. But if I break one open it looks like I'm looking at chalk. The outside doesn't look as bad. Although I didn't mind doing a zap test on the outside, the inside looks a bit to powdery to test. Ya, I'm a chicken.

Should I rebatch with more oil or liquid or both? I was going to use some shavings from my last few batches, but since this is a new one for me I'm not sure how to go about it and end up with a safe soap.

 

[sudbubblez]

Textures don't resolve on their own. A brittle soap is always going to be brittle unless its rebatched. I'm kind of at a loss as to what happened but rebatching is a very forgiving process. You could break it all up, or grate and put it in a crock pot or double boiler and add water or milk as you see fit. IF you grate it and use the finest side of your cheese grater, you won't even be able to tell its rebatch soap. since you have milk in this soap, I wouldn't rebatch it at temps over 140 or so because the milk will scald at 150-ish and the sugars will carmelize at 160.

The only brittleness caused by water, that I've experienced, is when I used a steep water discount and edges crumbled. Is it possible you didn't use as much liquid as you thought? Less liquid tends to make it harder for soap to gel because a certain amount of liquid is needed for it to react that way. Steep water discounting matches up to how you mentioned your soap behaved, traced and set up faster than usual, and to how its crumbly and dry/hard, didn't gel, and has no oil or liquid separations. I've never had a severely water discounted recipe gel, and they always harden up and can be cut within hours.

I wouldn't add any oil at first, you can always do it later in the cook if you think it needs it. Start with water/milk, only as much as you need to make it melt down. You can use lots of water if you wanted; enough to make it pourable and stick-blendable if thats what you want. The only thing too much water will do is cause the soap to shrink as it cools in the mold, then the bars may shrink a bit further during cure.

Since its so dry you could also grate it and soak it/ spray it with a bit of water for a few hours or a day or so to soften it so it melts easier.

 

[GiggleGoat]

Great recommendation. I've been doing this as a full time hobby for a few years now but the more I know the less I know I know. I'll rebatch tomorrow ans see how it all works out.

Thanks again and I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[GiggleGoat]

I don't know if this is considered bumping a thread but I just wanted to update the rebatch. It seemed to have gone okay and it's now back in the mold. I ended up adding a 1/4 cup of water for every 2 cups of soap. The recipe darkened slightly, but I think it might turn out.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Hazel]

Thanks for letting us know. Please let us know how it turns out after curing. I wish there could have been a definite answer for you.